MJ is a slimeball who should have been in prison, but I’m not so sure “owning” another human being is all that huge a step up in the morality scale.
Louis Armstrong - honestly, you don’t have too many of these other people on your lists without him
Woody Guthrie - Better in every single way than Dylan
Chuck Berry
James Brown
Which Mount Rushmore nominee in this thread “owned” another human being? Stephen Foster?
I meant the real Mount Rushmore.
Truth be told, I agree with you, although a half-hearted flimsy argument could made about quality mattering as much as quantity.
In any event, Duane is one of my two favorite 20th century intrumentalists (Art Tatum being the other), and I just couldn’t leave him out.
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That shows a profound ignorance of what Presley was. Blues singers didn’t sound like him in 1956 nor did country or rockabilly musicians. He merged a number of genres and basically kick started rock and roll.
Frank Sinatra didn’t write his own music either. Nor did Little Richard. Not sure Jimi Hendrix did either but happy to be corrected on that.
And you really do have a misunderstanding of what Presley accomplished. He was vastly more than that someone who copied anyone. He was unique and people like Little Richard and BB King were quite open and effusive in their praise of him. They believe he created something but then what would they know.
And his accomplishments in the gospel genre alone put paid to any notion that he lacked substance when compared to Jackson.
Again, this is also subjective but at least make an effort to appreciate the history behind the performers (as a correction, Little Richard did write Tutti Frutti and other songs but he was also a close friend to Elvis and both were big fans of the other). Jackie Wilson noted that most black performers copied their stage mannerisms from Elvis.
He didn’t write a single song. Claiming it was him, and not his songwriters or other musicians who actually wrote and performed the instruments, that “merged a number of genres” is like saying Keir Dullea changed filmmaking with 2001: A Space Odyssey. Elvis certainly is one hell of a performer, is charismatic, and was the right color to catch and keep the public’s attention, but that’s all he is, a performer.
In that sense, maybe he should be on Mount Rushmore of American Music, where style is more important than substance.
And I don’t think Frank Sinatra should be on the Mount Rushmore of American Music either.
Little Richard has writing credit on Tutti Frutti, Lucille, and Long Tall Sally. That’s three more hits than Elvis ever wrote.
Wikipedia lists 47 songs written by Jimi Hendrix.
Yes, he was a masterful performer. More cool than Bill Haley, less flamboyant (and lighter skinned) than Little Richard, younger than Chuck Berry, and better looking than Roy Orbison. He hit the sweet spot at the right time in American culture.
And for as awesome as a performer he was, he was still just a performer. He took music other people wrote, other people who “merged genres” and “kick started rock n’ roll” and made them appealing to the masses. No small feat by any means, but he’s just the pretty face on American music. Michael Jackson wrote his music, and did so from Motown to pop music. Bruce Springsteen wrote his music. The Eagles, George Gershwin, Billy Joel, Bob Dylan, and many of the others listed were much more than just performers, and all are much more deserving of being on Mt. Rushmore.
As others have said above, Les Paul didn’t invent the electric guitar. Not even close. He did allow (for a fee) his name to be put on, and to some extent participate in the design of, one very popular solid-body electric guitar.
Leo Fender didn’t invent the electric guitar either. Not even the solid-body electric guitar. I do think his designs were pretty revolutionary and very, very influential, though. He didn’t invent the electric bass, either, but his Precision Bass really did change pop music. Imagine rock, or especially R&B, without the electric bass. Without the Precision Bass, there would be no Larry Graham, no Bootsy Collins, no slapping and popping.
Les Paul might deserve a place on this list for his work with multi-track recording, though. I’m not sure he actually “invented” it, but he sure did popularize it. Check out those Les Paul/Mary Ford records, with layers and layers of guitars and vocals, all played by Les and Mary.
You vastly overestimate the merits if writing a song and underestimate the value of, you know, actually performing a song. Interpreting the music of others is valued by classical performers and this is no different.
For example, Carl Perkins wrote Blue Suede Shoes yet his version of the song is profoundly different than Elvis’ version. That difference is the key to understanding the transformative nature of Presley. To dismiss Elvis as a mere performer is to miss the point entirely but I suspect you already know this. None of his peers deride or dismiss him as you do and notable writers of music from Dylan to Bernstein hail him as a defining cultural force. And again, he was doing things even black performers weren’t doing so try and look past race. You are absolutely wrong in that his “merging genres” is secondary to song writing because he really did create something new both culturally and commercially. His impact was phenomenal and greater then that of Jackson thus he belongs on our imaginary mountain.
Well, given that the OP has given the respondents carte blanche to define what gets people on their personal Rushmore, there really is no right answer to this.
In regards to my Rushmore, Bernstein’s head fell off the mountain and was replaced with Maybelle Carter, for I realized that a Rushmore of American music without country or folk represented is pretty stupid on my part.
Elvis still gets in over MJ, though, and it’s not even close. Even Leonard Bernstein thought Elvis was the most influential artist of the 20th century*. He would have never thought that about Michael Jackson.
*“Elvis is the greatest cultural force in the twentieth century. He introduced the beat to everything and he changed everything - music, language, clothes, it’s a whole new social revolution - the 60’s comes from it. Because of him a man like me barely knows his musical grammar anymore.”
Yes, I do. At least now we have the point of difference in our opinions. To use your example of classical music, I would never put in Maria Alsop or James Levine on Mount Rushmore over Beethoven or Mozart. Putting on a spangley suit, swiveling your hips, being mostly described by the adjectives “fat or skinny”, and dying on the crapper doesn’t rate as high as actually creating music to me.
Yes, I am engaging in some serious hyperbole in trying to make my point. He was, as I said, a very good performer. He was also a good singer, and he was, for the most part, respectful and kind to the people who created and developed the music he performed, and he probably had a little influence in the making of the music (although not one person in the world isn’t going to recognize that Carl Perkins’ Blue Suede Shoes and Elvis’ Blue Suede Shoes aren’t the same song).
Yes, if this was the Mount Rushmore of American Cultural Icons or the Mount Rushmore of Style over Substance, by all means, we can agree to throw Elvis right up there in spot #1. But you’re seriously overestimating his influence on the actual Music part of American Music, and instead focusing on “culture” or “style”.
Then you have a very limited view on what creating music actually means. So actors are basically all style and no substance right? Given your definition of what is “substantive” right? If you pretty much help create the genre that we’re talking about then that’s substantive, however which why you do that.
And therein lies the heart of the matter. Elvis created something entirely new. It was a new genre and he did so by interpreting songs and music in a why that just hadn’t been done before. This is why he is so lauded today (even in this thread) by both his contemporaries and his successors. His version of Blue Suede Shoes isn’t just a stylish make over, it completely recreates the song and thus the music itself. You may not see that but fortunately many others did (and I don’t even want to get into the argument that the voice isn’t an instrument in its own right).
That culture and style were what helped created rock & roll. That’s the whole point of it. His influence changed the way songs were written and indeed how musicians approached their craft and that’s patently obvious by what followed Presley. The moves, the look, the voice and they way he sung a song dramatically and substantively changed American music. To dismiss it as a mere ‘style’ is to miss the point entirely, the style was the substance. Fortunately you are in a minority and musicians who saw Elvis were profoundly influenced by him and openly so.
Untrue. I just don’t think that the performer is the most important part. The people who write the music and who play the instruments and, yes the singer, are all parts of the creative process. But being a performer is just one part of it. People like Michael Jackson, Bob Dylan, and many others included in this thread were not just performers, they also wrote and played instruments in addition to solely performing or singing. They deserve much more credit than the guy who happens to grab the public’s attention.
No, but they certainly can’t be credited with creating a film. They have a part to play in the creation, but not by a long shot are they the most important. Surely you don’t think actors are more important than writers and directors to the creative process.
Bullshit. Show me any real evidence that he “created” anything musical without assistance, and I’ll be much more likely to agree with you.
The problem is he didn’t. He was one small player in the music (note: not the culture or style) of rock and roll. Surely he was well managed enough to surround himself with talented people, but people were playing, creating, and writing songs that combined country, blues, rockabilly, gospel, and rock and roll well before he came along, were doing it while he was, and have done it since. He’s not some kind of magical pioneer, hell he wouldn’t be even in the top 50 of people who created rock and roll music. He certainly brought the style and made it popular, but creating it? Not even close. It’s kinda hard to claim to be a creator when you didn’t write a single fucking song.
Oh, please. That’s like saying that Billy Idol is amazing because he covered Louie Louie.
Again, it’s not the Mount Rushmore of American Style or the Mount Rushmore of American Culture. It’s the Mount Rushmore of American Music.
“Changed the way songs were written?” “How musicians approached their craft?” Did he cure cancer and get rid of the national debt too? Tell me, what concrete things, things that dealt with the music, not the style and culture, but the music, did Elvis do? Outside of having a buttload of money to pay people to write songs for him, of course.
And here’s another point we can disagree on. You don’t have to stretch reality to make Elvis some kind of musical innovator who “changed the way songs were written” (which would be amazing considering he never fucking wrote a song). You cannot separate the music from the style. I can. I can listen to the music without having to see the gyrating hips, the spangley suit, and the more-prop-than-instrument guitar. That’s what I judge the music on, how it sounds, not how someone looks while they’re performing it.
Billy Idol is amazing, but he didn’t cover that song. He covered “Mony Mony” and some others.
Geddy Lee (Rush)
Alex Lifeson (Rush)
Neil Peart (Rush)
Janis Joplin
Presley & his band appeared on The Grand Ole Opry when he had his first hit–“That’s All Right Mama.” Of course, they couldn’t play that blues tune, so they did the B-side, Bill Monroe’s “Blue Moon of Kentucky”–which Elvis had transformed from a waltz to something that rocked. (The band only knew two songs at the time.)
Some of the Opry regulars looked forward to seeing Mr Monroe–who was not known for effusiveness–put the upstart in his place. Instead, he approved the new take on his song. Thereafter, he & the Bluegrass Boys began it as a waltz–then kicked it up to 4/4/ time…
Scott Joplin
George Gershwin
Rodgers and Hammerstein
Leonard Bernstein
One African and at least two Jews. Hmmm…