I can’t speak for athelas, but what he wrote here pretty much mirrors what I witnessed in high school (except for the bit about the teachers unions, which we didn’t have at my school).
Teachers are loathe to disrupt the social order or mess with the status quo. Simply put, they don’t see it as part of their jobs. It’s just easier to sit back and ignore these things. And in a way, I can’t blame them. They’ve already got enough hellions to deal with, who aren’t necessarily bullies, but are the types of jackasses who like to disrupt class (judging from what my sister, a teacher, tells me). Why get involved in more discord?
Nine times out of 10, unless someone is physically assaulting another kid, the teachers aren’t going to do jack shit, and even then that physical assault would have to take the form of an honest to goodness fistfight that they can’t plausibly ignore.
nvm
I read an article this morning about bullying and girls and how many parents of bullies think their kids are cute when they engage in that type of behavior. Personally, I think the “fix” would have to start with the parents. The teachers are an important component, but they can only be expected to do so much. But the douche-bag parents who think it’s cute that little Payton is such a diva or think that it’s awesome that Johnny is so assertive need to be knocked upside the head.
That said, I think kids need to be allowed to resolve some of their own problems. It seems like half the time the bullies’ parents engage in the behavior, while the parents of the kids who are being bullied blow the whistle super early - as soon as a negative comment is made. I don’t think things should be allowed to come to blows, but kids should be given an opportunity to sort out their social issues themselves. And the parents who get involved in the bullying need to be smacked for engaging in cage matches.
I was bullied mercilessly in school. Originally I responded to it by crying, which just gave the kids who tormented me more fodder; when I started ignoring it and they just pushed harder, other kids thought the bullies were the assholes and they backed off. I wish at the time I’d had the stones to hit back. I wouldn’t condone it myself, but it probably would’ve stopped the bullying much earlier.
Sometimes that works, overlyverbose. And I agree with you that with solving his own problems a child will grow stronger over time.
A lot of these issues used to be settled on the playground without a lot of adult interference. Unfortunately what used to be considered a part of growing up has now been criminalized and a child who takes to violence to solve his problem may be correct in his decision to take care of it for once and all time. Then he may end up in the judicial system. Not a good thing at all unless there are no other options.
And like you say, some children have supportive parents giving good advice and others give advice that may lead to a life of problems.
I certainly don’t envy any parent trying to figure this out in our present society.
One of the most dangerous cliches, in my experience anyway, is the “Bullies are cowards- stand up to them and they’ll leave you alone” one. I have no doubts that it’s true in some cases, but I can say from experience it’s not true in all, and it’s even more false when it’s more than one person doing the bullying. (Stand up to a gang of four guys all of whom have been in more fights than you… how’s that again?)
When we went from Jr. High to High School, the Band of Thugs was broke up and all went to different classes; one-on-one, they generally weren’t so brave. But I did have to throw down with a few, and I sure as Hell took some lumps.
The biggest lies told to kids have nothing to do with Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny:
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Cheaters Never Prosper
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Bullys Are Cowards
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Violence Never Solves Anything
Well, it seems as if there is some justice in the public school system:
http://gawker.com/5661607/four-new-york-high-schoolers-arrested-for-abuse-of-muslim-classmate
I can only hope these little shits “drop the soap” in the jail showers.
I don’t think all the awareness campaigns make much of a difference. I sure as hell think the lawsuits do.
The problem is that there is only so much one teacher can do without risking further problems. There is a social order that has to be maintained – it’s called “classroom discipline” – and upsetting that has consequences for 20-some other kids, not just bully and victim.
That being said, teachers do talk to each other, to counselors, and to administrators, and believe me, they talk amongst themselves a good bit about this problem and ways to resolve it. Some schools are having teachers go through class rosters before the start of the year to make sure that there are no bully/victim combinations, and that there are no compatibility issues with kids who shouldn’t be together for whatever reason. And, oftentimes, the best solutions are the quiet, subtle ones, like re-arranging classroom schedules, carefully-designed seating arrangements to keep these kids apart, and just generally knowing who the students are and keeping track of this stuff. There are also ways to smoke the bullies out, to force them to pursue their victims. Either the bully loses interest in that person and finds someone else (which can then be dealt with), or they call attention to themselves, which results in disciplinary and/or legal action.
Teachers do something about bullying, they’re just not always public about it.
Empowering victims is okay, but the real impact will come when we switch our attention to the bullies and make it not worth their while to bully people. But how do we do that?
Point taken, and there is definitely a trade off between “doing something about bullying” and “maintaining order.” I would argue that we should have more incentives to move the slider towards “doing something,” if only because the teachers who take the time to do something are unrewarded in the current system. They’re the ones who not only have to make the effort of keeping track of bullying, but also have to intervene and deal with the upset of the classroom social order. It’s more comfortable to ignore nondisruptive bullying, and there’s only a downside for acting on your conscience. I’d like to change that.
That said, I find an interesting parallel with the stereotypical political conflict - the comfortable conservative pushing for social order and working within the system, versus the liberal agitator arguing that we sometimes need to break some eggs to make the omelet of social justice. Teachers are typically politically liberal, and it’s interesting that they revert to conservative principles when they are at the helm.
You forgot “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.”
This morning I heard that a kid at our high school has committed suicide. I don’t know why yet, though apparently he was a pretty awkward kid who wasn’t always treated well. I don’t know more than that, and they’re keeping it out of the paper, it seems.
[QUOTE=MsRobyn;13016326
The problem is that there is only so much one teacher can do without risking further problems. There is a social order that has to be maintained – it’s called “classroom discipline” – and upsetting that has consequences for 20-some other kids, not just bully and victim.
That being said, teachers do talk to each other, to counselors, and to administrators, and believe me, they talk amongst themselves a good bit about this problem and ways to resolve it. Some schools are having teachers go through class rosters before the start of the year to make sure that there are no bully/victim combinations, and that there are no compatibility issues with kids who shouldn’t be together for whatever reason. And, oftentimes, the best solutions are the quiet, subtle ones, like re-arranging classroom schedules, carefully-designed seating arrangements to keep these kids apart, and just generally knowing who the students are and keeping track of this stuff. There are also ways to smoke the bullies out, to force them to pursue their victims. Either the bully loses interest in that person and finds someone else (which can then be dealt with), or they call attention to themselves, which results in disciplinary and/or legal action.
Teachers do something about bullying, they’re just not always public about it.[/QUOTE]
Still there’s only so much teachers can do short of following kids around every minute of the day.
Social aggression has and always will exist at every level of society. Hell, there’s bullying here, there’s bullying happening between siblings at home, between people in the workplace, everwhere. Suing the schools for policies they can’t enforce 100% of the time isn’t the answer.
Who specifically are most of these “bullies” anyway? As Pogo said, “We have met the enemy and he is us.” Who among us hasn’t been on the bully side of the fence? I imagine most so-called bullies would be surprised to be described that way.
Instead of creating more rules, policies and restrictions that won’t work, I think we need to focus on reducing the victim mentality that permeates much of society. With kids, let’s help them become more resilient to mean things that other people may say about them…hey, you might as well learn it now.
I’m not referring to physicial assaults or other illegal activites such as sexual harassment which we cannot ignore…but to the everyday taunts and teasing that happens everyday in schools.
I propose a more militant version of the PTA that gets together once or twice a month to watch videos from the schools security cameras, makes notes, finds out who the bullies are, then in February goes in and beats the hell out of the school bullies while the cameras are off.
I think we need to also see the school as another kind of workplace; the behaviors that the bullies are participating in are, at best, creating a hostile work environment, and at worst participating in illegal activities such as harassment, stalking and assault. We don’t tolerate these things in the workplace, so why should kids be told to “toughen up”? We don’t anticipate a worker whose co-workers are making suggestions about their body shape, intelligence, race, or sexuality to just deal with it. Why expect a more vulnerable student to do so?
That is probably the most intelligent and well reasoned thing I’ve read lately.
Unfortunately, because you have far fewer school options as a student than employment options as an adult. You are zoned to go to a particular school and there you shall go unless your family can afford private school or home schooling. You rarely have the option to switch schools they way you have the option to leave an employer. For your kid to switch schools you may have to move, quit your job, take a second job, or do any number of other things that will upset your family dynamic. If you can’t afford to do any of that your kid only has the option of learning coping techniques and dealing with the problem.
I approve of this proposal.
Of course, the difference is that a school is not a firm. An employee is an employee. In an ideal world, students should be treated as consumers. In the real world, they’re treated as product.
I think we start coming down on the bullies with the fury of God’s own thunder. This would be different from a zero tolerance policy.
Step 1: Identify bullies. This shouldn’t be hard. They generally come up in disciplinary reports day after day. Parents of victims frequently spend months with the administration – who have already identified these students as problems – trying to get something done. Frequently (though not always), administrations know damn well who these kids are.
Step 2: Start using adult words. Harassment, stalking, assault, terroristic threats. Use those adult words for penalties. Track students with numerous complaints.
Step 3: Consequences. Students who harrass other students consistantly incur in school penalties. Continued recidivism, family court gets involved. Get these kids in intervention programs and deterrence programs before they hit 18.
Step 4: Eliminate the zero tolerance policy for students in fights. If a students’ parents have gotten on record about the bullying, and their child defends him/herself, they get a free pass within reason. Frequently, kids are afraid to defend themselves with this dumb zero tolerance policy.