# Your opinion of the word "Womyn" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 13, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510 "2006-08-13T02:22:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/61 "2006-08-13T16:44:54Z")
[QUOTE=Queen Tonya] I do not like it, Sam I am. [/QUOTE] I do not like yn 'stead of an. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/62 "2006-08-13T16:45:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diceman] It’s not just white trash. Behold [grillz](http://music.aol.com/photo_galleries/grillz-quiz). You may now weep for the future of our nation. I agree that “womyn” is pretty absurd, BTW. [/QUOTE] Heh, “cool” mis-spellings like that get under my skin. I refuse to see the Fast and the Furious movies because of the second movie’s title: “2 Stupid 4 English” Also, I had to laugh when I was in a Cingular store and I saw the big banner they had advertising a back-to-school special on two Motorola phones: The RAZR and the RCKR. As in, “Razor” (the really thin flip phone) and the “Rocker” (the phone with an iTunes MP3 player built-in). That’s right, a back to school special featuring two badly mis-spelled products. :smack: That’s not to say I wouldn’t BUY the RAZR if I had $300 burning a hole in my pocket, it’s a phone cool enough to overcome it’s own retarded marketing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/63 "2006-08-13T16:51:55Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Actually, [“woman” means “ **wife** of man.”](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=woman) Yes, that’s what it means. [/QUOTE] No, as the linked definition says, the meaning is “woman-man”, with the word “man” in the generalized sense of “human being”. The _wif_ that became “wife” simply means “female person”. The word “housewife” is literally “house woman”, and the phrase “man and wife” was originally understood as simply “man and woman”. It’s just that the meaning of _wife_ gradually became more specialized until it was explicitly understood by most people as referring to a female who was married to a particular man. See [this discussion](http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010625) of the word “fishwife”, which mentions in passing the still-common term “midwife” as a surviving example of the original denotation of “wife”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/64 "2006-08-13T16:57:58Z")
[QUOTE=Kat] I think it’s stupid. Do They use “humyn” as well? [/QUOTE] \< Googles \> [Apparently so](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=humyn). ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/65 "2006-08-13T17:02:30Z")
[QUOTE=Carlyjay] Do I bother? Do I bother? …Yes, I bother. [/QUOTE] Excuse me, but as a Masculinist (thank you Tim Allen), I would like to suggest that you replace “bother” with “bothim”. Thank you for your cooperation. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/66 "2006-08-13T17:27:09Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] \< Googles \> [Apparently so](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=humyn). [/QUOTE] Wait- so following that logic out, “womyn” are a subset of “humynity”, but “men” are not part of “humynity”? Who’s sexist now? ---
**Author:** ![Carlyjay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Carlyjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carlyjay)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/67 "2006-08-13T17:41:17Z")
[QUOTE=Raguleader] Excuse me, but as a Masculinist (thank you Tim Allen), I would like to suggest that you replace “bother” with “bothim”. Thank you for your cooperation. 😃 [/QUOTE] LOL!!! You win. You win the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/68 "2006-08-13T17:49:23Z")
I’m one of the Dope’s most notorious, outspoken feminists, but I’m also a lover of the English language and an etymologist. I always write “women” with an “e.” I have no problem with the endings -_man_ and -_men_ in _woman_ and _women_, because I know they just mean ‘human being’. Thanks to **Sternvogel** for clarifying the Old English etymology. That’s the way to fight ignorance! As the Hindu philosopher Shankaracarya said, the only cure for ignorance is knowledge. Other languages have taken the word for “woman” and specialized it to mean “wife,” for example Latin _mulier_ ‘woman’ became Italian _moglie_ with the specific meaning of ‘wife’. Meanwhile Spanish _mujer_, from the same origin, still means ‘woman’. The Italian word for woman is _donna_, from Latin _domina_ ‘lady’ literally the mistress of the house (_domus_). The process of semantic lowering of the word’s meaning from ‘woman of the property-owning class’ to woman in general of any social class is called pejoration. The Proto-Indo-European root \*_gwen-_ meaning generally ‘woman’, which produced so many words for ‘woman’ in daughter languages, like Greek _gyne_, Czech _žena_, Irish _bean_, Persian _zan_, or Swedish _kvinna_, became the English word _queen_. This shows the opposite semantic movement, called amelioration. As a really curious coincidence, the Old Japanese word _womina_ ‘woman’, which looks like a blend of English _woman_ and Latin _domina_, has now become Japanese _onna_, which resembles Italian _donna_. In French, German, and many other languages, the word for woman (_femme, Frau_, etc.) must do double duty for ‘wife’, although I’m not sure how they avoid confusion. The English word _wife_ is the cognate of German _Weib_ meaning ‘woman’. (The more usual German word _Frau_ is another example of pejoration; it originally meant ‘noblewoman’.) These words come from proto-Germanic \*_wibam_ ‘woman’. The origin is the Proto-Indo-European root [\*_ghwibh-_](http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE175.html) ‘pudenda’, also source of Tocharian A _kwipe_ and Tocharian B _kip_, ‘female pudenda’. The gender contrast was made in Old English between _wæpen-man_ ‘weapon-person’ (man) and _wif-man_ ‘vulva person’ (woman). That “man” in the unmarked form later got the default meaning of ‘male’ shows dominance and privilege given to the male gender in language reflecting men’s dominant social status. In language, unmarked forms are used for higher prestige referents, while subordinate ones are named with qualifying terms. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/69 "2006-08-13T18:35:21Z")
I don’t use it, but it doesn’t trouble me. I assume from the amount of rancor that it generates in this thread that it continues to fulfil one of its purposes, which is to draw one’s active attention. I was joking. And I’m female, FWIW. I have no problem with “women” and I think “womyn” is ridiculous and unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/70 "2006-08-13T18:36:14Z")
[QUOTE=Eleusis] Best part was that the chicky had huge knockers with “womyn” scrawled across the chest. [/QUOTE] Yeah, and then she maced him. It can be viewed [here](http://youtube.com/watch?v=AahiGmTMPtM). “Yeah, yeah, Women RIGHT NOW!!!” ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/71 "2006-08-13T18:36:36Z")
Let’s try that last piece again, hitting “quote” rather than “post”: > [@](#): > > I was joking. And I’m female, FWIW. > > I have no problem with “women” and I think “womyn” is ridiculous and unnecessary. Cool. How would male Doppers feel about switching to a generic female pronoun? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/72 "2006-08-13T18:44:20Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] Other languages have taken the word for “woman” and specialized it to mean “wife,” for example Latin _mulier_ ‘woman’ became Italian _moglie_ with the specific meaning of ‘wife’. Meanwhile Spanish _mujer_, from the same origin, still means ‘woman’. [/quote] However, it can also be used to mean “wife,” as can French _femme_, although _esposa_ is in somewhat more common use than _épouse_ is. FWIW, the same thing happens in Catalan as in Italian: _dona_ “woman,” _muller_ “wife.” However, _dona_ can also be used for “wife”: _el home que va confundir la seva dona amb un barret_ “the man who mistook his wife for a hat.” > [@](#): > > The Proto-Indo-European root \*gwen- meaning generally ‘woman’, which produced so many words for ‘woman’ in daughter languages, like Greek gyne, Czech žena, Irish bean, Persian zan, or Swedish kvinna, became the English word queen. This shows the opposite semantic movement, called amelioration. Oddly, of the European languages I know, English is the only one where the word for “woman” is a derivative, instead of being a root in itself; but it’s also the only one where “queen” is a root in itself, rather than the feminine of “king.” (Compare the various cognates of _Königin_ or _regina_.) Interesting, ne? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/73 "2006-08-13T19:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] In language, unmarked forms are used for higher prestige referents, while subordinate ones are named with qualifying terms. [/QUOTE] :dubious: What about terms like “superman”, “superpower”, “hyperwar”, “longbow”, “hypertext”, or “ultraefficient” then ? ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/74 "2006-08-13T21:13:24Z")
I’m surprised that so few of the femextremists seem to have noticed that the word **person** is objectionable because is contains **son**. **Perchild** is the obvious option. Or, to avoid accusations of “ageism,” **perbeing**. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/75 "2006-08-13T21:14:29Z")
Please excuse a typo. In my comment above, “because is contains” should have been “because it contains.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/76 "2006-08-13T21:50:24Z")
When I was going to SF State, one of the professors was [Elana Dykewomon.](http://www.dykewomon.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/77 "2006-08-13T21:58:13Z")
Then there’s the fundie group who used the term "Heaven-O instead of Hello. I think there’s a thread about this but I’'m too lazy to search. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/78 "2006-08-13T22:36:52Z")
To me there are 2 different things: Man - could be used for mankind, which includes both genders. man/women refer to a single gender of us (Human). Now the confusion between man = mankind, and man = male leads to a bit of confusion, but in no way do I see ‘woman’ as any less or subordinate to ‘man’. I do see womyn as a inferior subspecies of mankind however. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/79 "2006-08-14T00:51:28Z")
This is something chycks used to do back in the McGill Daily student paper back in 1996 – do navelgazer feminists still even use the word? It’s tough for me to take people like this seriously. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510/80 "2006-08-14T01:01:04Z")
If I wanted to spell “woman” so that it bore no semblance etymologically to “man”, I think I would go with “beyatch”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-of-the-word-womyn/368510.md?page=5)