# Your Opinion On Snowden Poll **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 22, 2015, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274 "2015-04-22T10:51:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/61 "2015-04-23T16:28:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The people have decided that the government should have the power to keep secrets. Snowden violated that agreement. In other threads you’ve made a big deal about how important it is that we are not a democracy but a republic. In a republic, though, the government’s decisions are manifestly _not_ the people’s decisions. They are the decisions of a group of people who were elected, but they were elected precisely in order to take the burden of decision-making mostly away from the people. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/62 "2015-04-23T16:35:42Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > In a republic, though, the government’s decisions are manifestly _not_ the people’s decisions. They are the decisions of a group of people who were elected, but they were elected precisely in order to take the burden of decision-making mostly away from the people. And the American people have elected representatives and leaders who have decided on our behalf that it’s best that the government keep secrets. This is the will of the people. If it weren’t, we wouldn’t elect those people. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/63 "2015-04-23T16:36:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The Supreme Court has ruled that no American has been able to demonstrate that the NSA’s programs have harmed them in any way. So, there’s that. This is a little disingenuous, isn’t it? They haven’t been able to prove it because whether they are being spied on _is a secret_. You seem to be suggesting that because no one could prove it, that means no American was being improperly spied on. The far more likely truth is that many Americans are being illegally surveilled but that no individual has been able to prove it to the satisfaction of more than four Supreme Court justices. As it turns out, Snowden’s revelations might change that. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/64 "2015-04-23T16:47:13Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is a little disingenuous, isn’t it? They haven’t been able to prove it because whether they are being spied on _is a secret_. They can’t very well say, “Richard Parker, the guy we have underground in the Kremlin, is now in danger because of Mr. Snowden.” ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/65 "2015-04-23T16:47:29Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > _ **Binney** _, in fact, demonstrates another way. > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Er, no. What he demonstrates is that “going through the system” _doesn’t work_, and that calls to do so are simply attempts to make the issue go away without addressing it, a la Mitt Romney’s [“quiet rooms”](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/01/romney-quiet-rooms.html). > [@Ravenman](#): > > Again, let’s be factual here. Whether Snowden ever tried to “go through the system” is highly doubtful. OK, now it’s in large underlined bold italic dark red. Don’t make me ask the management to enable blink tags… ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/66 "2015-04-23T16:49:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They can’t very well say, “Richard Parker, the guy we have underground in the Kremlin, is now in danger because of Mr. Snowden.” I think you’ve misread \*\*Ravenman’\*\*s comment, which was about damage to Americans caused by the NSA’s programs. I agree that both sides are bit hamstrung in proving harm from the actions of Snowden and the NSA, respectively. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/67 "2015-04-23T16:51:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The Supreme Court has ruled that no American has been able to demonstrate that the NSA’s programs have harmed them in any way. So, there’s that. I disagree. (Not my original words…) “What Americans used to commonly refer to a as _a right to freedom_ is now more commonly being refered to as _a rights of privacy_.” Seems to me that if citizens are demanding a right to privacy from excessive or unwarranted gov’t intrusion, the right to freedom has already suffered; I’m going to argue that’s demonstrable harm. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/68 "2015-04-23T16:57:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I"What Americans used to commonly refer to a as _a right to freedom_ is now more commonly being refered to as _a rights of privacy_." 1. The Constitution does not provide for a “right to freedom”, and such a notion is so abstract as to be utterly meaningless in the first place. 2. The Constitution provides a right to privacy as an extension of the Fourth Amendment prohibition against unreasonable search and seizure; however, merely _collecting_ metadata automatically is not a search if nobody ever looks at it. That’s all the NSA was doing - collecting and archiving data so that, if they had a reason to suspect someone of plotting against this country _and had a warrant_, they could then review that evidence without having to invent a time machine. It’s perfectly legal and you have in no way been harmed by it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/69 "2015-04-23T16:57:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And the American people have elected representatives and leaders who have decided on our behalf that it’s best that the government keep secrets. This is the will of the people. If it weren’t, we wouldn’t elect those people. I know how much you love analogies… Was it the will of the people that Nixon and his croanies commit the Watergate scandal? Was it the will of the people that Reagan and his croanies commit the Iran-Contra scandal? I mean, it must have been. The people in their infinite wisdom voted for them, right? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/70 "2015-04-23T17:04:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s all the NSA was doing - collecting and archiving data so that, if they had a reason to suspect someone of plotting against this country _and had a warrant_, they could then review that evidence without having to invent a time machine. It’s perfectly legal and you have in no way been harmed by it. This is breathtakingly wrong. Metadata gets no privacy protection at all. NSA is collecting it and FBI or DEA can see it without any legal process at all. Content, like the body of an email, is also routinely collected without any legal process except for FISA court approval of the generic procedures. That content then gets retained if it meets any of many criteria, including merely discussing someone targeted pursuant to FISA court rules (which is done without any judicial review of the individual targeting decision, much less a warrant). And if that data is scooped up along with, say, a whole email conversation thread that doesn’t otherwise meet the criteria, it still gets retained. And then this retained data can be reviewed for a whole host of reasons, none of which require a warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/71 "2015-04-23T17:08:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Content, like the body of an email, is also routinely collected without any legal process except for FISA court approval of the generic procedures. So in other words, it’s collected lawfully in accordance with a lawful process. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/72 "2015-04-23T17:12:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. The Constitution does not provide for a “right to freedom”, and such a notion is so abstract as to be utterly meaningless in the first place. I stand corrected; I should have been more careful and said, “right to freedom of speech”. Having said that, what is your understanding of [this interpretation of the First Amendment](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/first_amendment)? Specifically: > [@Cornell University Law School](#): > > The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. See U.S. Const. amend. I. Freedom of expression consists of the rights to freedom of speech, press, assembly and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, and the implied rights of association and belief. The Supreme Court interprets the extent of the protection afforded to these rights. The First Amendment has been interpreted by the Court as applying to the entire federal government even though it is only expressly applicable to Congress. Furthermore, the Court has interpreted, the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as protecting the rights in the First Amendment from interference by state governments. See U.S. Const. amend. XIV. To wit, if my communications (yes, including meta-data) are being recorded, is it unnatural for me to feel like my freedom of speech is under scrutiny? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/73 "2015-04-23T17:17:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > To wit, if my communications (yes, including meta-data) are being recorded, is it unnatural for me to feel like my freedom of speech is under scrutiny? How does the mere act of recording your communications threaten your freedom of speech? Is the fact that this thread is searchable via Google and could theoretically be read by a government official a threat? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/74 "2015-04-23T17:24:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How does the mere act of recording your communications threaten your freedom of speech? Is the fact that this thread is searchable via Google and could theoretically be read by a government official a threat? Yes. It can, actually. I’m a SharePoint administrator and if I wanted to apply for Snowden’s job, this post would certainly cast a light of suspicion on me. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/75 "2015-04-23T17:29:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m a SharePoint administrator and if I wanted to apply for Snowden’s job, this post would certainly cast a light of suspicion on me. That’s not a threat to your freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/76 "2015-04-23T17:34:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s not a threat to your freedom of speech. Something he said or wrote would prevent him from having a job, if I understand correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/77 "2015-04-23T17:39:56Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Something he said or wrote would prevent him from having a job, if I understand correctly. Not being hired by a private corporation because you’ve publicly expressed sympathy for a man who manipulated them and used their resources to commit espionage and treason isn’t an infringement of the First Amendment. It’s just good business sense. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/78 "2015-04-23T17:46:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s not a threat to your freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is not what the gov’t allows you to say. It’s how the gov’t treats you once you’ve said it. Here’s one more analogy for you… Despite what some people in the west believe, in Soviet Russia citizens were permitted to say whatever they wanted about the gov’t and it’s policies. The gulags were full of those who chose to exercise that right. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/79 "2015-04-23T17:50:07Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Despite what some people in the west believe, in Soviet Russia citizens were permitted to say whatever they wanted about the gov’t and it’s policies. The gulags were full of those who chose to exercise that right. Great. Blast me a tweet once anything you’ve said in this thread lands you in gulag. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274/80 "2015-04-23T17:51:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Not being hired by a private corporation because you’ve publicly expressed sympathy for a man who manipulated them and used their resources to commit espionage and treason isn’t an infringement of the First Amendment. > > It’s just good business sense. Booze Allen would hire me readily with my skill set and experience. I didn’t say I wanted a job with Booze Allen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinion-on-snowden-poll/718274.md?page=5)