I am not saying that nobody should stand up for the humane and responsible treatment of animals. I’m just saying that the way ALF goes about it is just plain wrong.
[QUOTE=OfBlinkingThings]
zoogirl
If people in the labs treated the animals better maybe they wouldnt get firebombed and harrassed, but until conditions change, which they can, they deserve it.QUOTE]
And terrorist groups like ELF and ALF should likewise be willing to accept consequences for their actions.
These groups ARE terrorists. How are they not? They firebomb labs and destroy property in order to intimidate people into adhering to their fringe political beliefs! That is the very DEFINITION of a TERRORIST!! Just because they wear Berkinstocks and dreads instead of a ratty beard and a turbin does not make them any less so.
And what would these groups say if one of their firebombs accidently killed some janitor or a researcher working late? “Ooops! Well…the preservation of human life was in our charter”?
Now I know that your basic ignorant hippy thinks he’s crusading against an oppressive, faceless corporation. That’s all well and good. But there are perfectly legitimate and non-destructive methods for getting your point accross. And just because you have the right to have your voice heard does not mean other people have to listen.
Why not say that?
Just so I understand…
You’re saying that someone who works in a lab where they conduct animal research should be firebombed?
Because it’s hypocritical to say that you, as a group, value life, then act in such a way to endanger life.
Well I am not getting into the AFL thing(because I do find it hypocritical that they’d kill a person to save an animal …reminds me of the anti-abortionists who are pro death penalty) but from what I know about the ELF they are primarily anti-sprawl and anti-SUV… The sprawl issue is a BIIIIGGG issue, not a fringe minority. Tons of communities are fighting over developement in the states around me…whether its huge ill- planned Mansion communities or getting a big old corporation or cell tower for a neighbor. Unfortunately these cases always end up in favor of the developer whether or not your whole darn town signs the petition or how many environmental specialists say its not a good idea. And are SUV’s really necessary in suburbia (We dont own the oil…well not yet anyway)
Now I dont want to start making molitave cocktails but I can see the frustration that leads to it. And you will too when your town goes through it-crowded schools, roads, huge taxes, all kinds of medical problems, decreased property values…ect
I dont agree that they are terrorists though… Goodness a burnt up hummer dealership is NOTHING compared to 9/11 or oklahoma city. Terrorist attacks always include PEOPLE. Does the loss of an SUV dealership really destroy the quality of our lives? It doesnt even affect the dealership(Insurance) Sure they are Vandals, extremists, criminals, maybe even insane but do you think that we should just label terrorist so casually? Find them and prosecute them according to what they’ve done But I dont think they belong in Guantanimo…
Terrorists they are, for the reasons msmith537 delineated. Find them, prosecute them, throw away the key. If any human lives are lost in any of their stunts, then fry them all.
Buncha hippy bunny-huggers. Anybody who regards animals as being anywhere on a par with people gets only my contempt.
Terrorism isn’t limited by it’s impact or size. There is a lot more damage of property, and loss of money than occurs then homicidal bombings. We just hear more about the acts that involve loss of human life. These people ARE terrorists, and should be treated accordingly. An SUV dealership burnt down IS a big loss. Just because the person who owns it may be wealthy doesn’t make it allright to cost him or her money just to further your cause. Think about the employees, the service techs, the customer reps, the HOURLY workers who are out of jobs now. Do you think they’ll simply be given paid leave until the dealership is rebuilt? Those people may have families to feed on small pay. ALF and ELF has taken food out of childrens mouths when they do such things. They ARE terrorists.
I do not condone the actions of the ALF or the ELF (although I am much more sympathetic to the views of the latter than the former), but I do not put the late night firebombing of labs and the destruction of property in the same category as walking into a crowded restaurant with a bomb strapped to your chest, flying an airplane into an office building, and neither does the law. Do you msmith537, really believe that the two classes of action–the malicious destruction of property and bombings that are designed to inflict the maximum number of casualties–are in fact the same? I believe the ALF and ELF vandals should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law if caught, but they should not be shipped off to Camp X-ray or declared “enemy combatants” or anything like that.
These people feel very passionately about their causes, but good old fashioned civil disobiendence is what is called for. Attacking labs and burning SUVs might make you feel good, but you’re just hurting your cause in the long run.
I never said they were justified in there criminal behavior. There are degrees to crimes is what I’m saying… Someone who steals your wallet is not on the same level as someone who robs a bank… Start throwing terrorist around and it becomes a cliche and inneffectual.
Also, if making families suffer through loss of jobs is a terrorist act then i hope you are all for prosecuting all the big american corporations that are shipping off all the tech and factory jobs in this country! People lose jobs everyday just because their companies want to cut costs… Lots more then are out of work due to some strange activist group.
From http://baltimore.fbi.gov/domter.htm
According to this definition, groups like ALF and ELF are terrorists.
I think this is one of the more remarkable discussions that has occurred of late around here.
I thank everyone for being so civil of such an emotional subject.
Still, it seems few people are convinced. One group says that ALF et. al. are not terrorists, but rely on some rather shaky arguments.‘They have never killed anyone’ begs others to answer with ‘yet.’
If they are not terrorists, what are they common criminals?
These guys have not caused large amounts of damage or death (yet) but it is not for lack of trying. I would point out the the American Militia Movement did not cause any large amounts of damage until Oklahoma City.
If law enforcement had crushed them when they started talking up the idea of violence, that horror could have been avoided.
I suppose we will say the same thing when these nutters grow up a monster who kills hundreds.
Earth’s Liberation Front. Get past the sixties already! Animal’s Liberation Front. Sheesh! Can you be more pretentious? I hope someone is going to tell me they were named tongue-in-cheek and a good deal of irony. But given that fanatic is a byword for no humour, I suspect these dudes just can’t see how ridiculous they sound. They should hire themselves a public relation suit. As always, the best way to deal with two-bit, self-absorbed, over serious fanatics is irony and humour. So let’s give it to Monty Pythons and Life of Brian:
BRIAN: Are you the Judean People’s Front?
REG: Fuck off!
BRIAN: What?
REG: Judean People’s Front. We’re the People’s Front of Judea! Judean People’s Front. Cawk.
FRANCIS: Wankers.
BRIAN: Can I… join your group?
REG: No. Piss off.
BRIAN: I didn’t want to sell this stuff. It’s only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.
** PEOPLE’S FRONT OF JUDEA:** Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.
REG: Schtum.
JUDITH: Are you sure?
BRIAN: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.
REG: Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you’d have to really hate the Romans.
BRIAN: I do!
REG: Oh, yeah? How much?
BRIAN: A lot!
REG: Right. You’re in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People’s Front.
**P.F.J.:**Yeah…
JUDITH: Splitters.
P.F.J.: Splitters…
FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People’s Front.
P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters…
LORETTA: And the People’s Front of Judea.
P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters…
And I think they’re rich kids or teenagers (and probably white) because this is the kind of people with little common sense, too much time on their hands, and a fervour to seem important. Bored and eager for a bit adrenaline kick, especially if they can delude themselves into thinking themselves the saviours of mother Earth. Take them home, give’me a good spanking. But for Christ sake don’t take them too serious.
- Rune
[QUOTE=WinstonSmithAnd I think they’re rich kids or teenagers (and probably white) because this is the kind of people with little common sense, too much time on their hands, and a fervour to seem important. Bored and eager for a bit adrenaline kick, especially if they can delude themselves into thinking themselves the saviours of mother Earth. Take them home, give’me a good spanking. But for Christ sake don’t take them too serious.
- Rune[/QUOTE]
If someone Looses my valuable livestock, or beloved Pets, burns down my property, and causes me that much financial and emotional stress, they’re going to get WAY more than a spanking. First I’m going to plant a boot so far up their ass that it’s going to need surgical attention to remove it, then I’m going to sue them until they’ve got nothing but those ratty birkenstocks left. I might take those too…and recycle the straps into gun slings. :mad: If they are nothing more than deluded, bored yuppie crotch-spawn, then hitting then financially and with jail time MIGHT make then think twice about engageing in such idocy again.
I also want to state that while I absolutely DETEST these people, I do not support the cruetly to animals simply for our benefit. I do eat meat, hunt, fish and keep pets. I try to make certain that my food was ranched free range, and steroid free. I only hunt what I can eat, and I use my kill. Cruel agribuisness and irresponsible pet owners deserve to prosecuted as well.
These people deserve to be ridiculed, but the “oh, it’s just a bunch of rich white kids” has to go. Not only - and I’m sorta amazed I even feel the need to say it - because it’s unfair to rich white kids :p, but because it doesn’t matter what these people’s background is. They’re fanatics, they’re nuts, and you can make a very good case that they’re terrorists. This is more serious than punk kids looking for kicks.
So if some operative were to bomb an empty synagogue or restaurant rather than a crowded one, he wouldn’t be a terrorist anymore?
Terrorism isn’t defined by death, it’s defined by violent actions against people or property.
animals < humans
I’m saying that intent is important, and the law recognizes this. It’s the difference between manslaughter and murder, for example.
And once again, I am not condoning these people’s actions. IMHO, laying down in front of the bulldozer=OK, blowing up the bulldozer=not OK. But blowing up the bulldozer =! terrorism.
As a side argument, what about abortion clinic bombers and OBGYN assasins? Do those arguing for defining ALF and ELF as terrorists believe that Operation Rescue are also terrorists? Vandals and murderers, yes. Deluded fanatics, yes. But not terrorists.
Yes those people are also terrorists. In fact since they are religiously motivated they are even BETTER qualified as terrorists. When someone tries to force their opinion, or way of life through fear, and destruction of life or property, they are terrorists. I don’t give a flying crap about their motivations. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Um, yes, they are. Given what I know about their tactics- forming physical barriers, slinging insults/slogans outside clinics, not repudiating those actions by members of their movement that do end up in loss of human life (tacit approval of such actions)…what else could they be? This is not civil disobedience- it is intimidation to gain by fear what you can not gain by force of law. And the proper authorities should clamp down on this with the full weight of legitimate law.