# Your opinions on English grammar and usage \[Click on each arrow for more\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 22, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327 "2021-08-22T20:56:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/62 "2021-08-23T18:47:31Z")
You can hone something (on a hone), or (if you are american 🙂 ) you can hone after something, but I am not aware you can hone “in on” something? “Homing missiles” are a real thing, on the other hand. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/63 "2021-08-23T18:48:12Z")
I’ve always said “home in on”. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/64 "2021-08-23T18:52:56Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > You can hone something (on a hone), or (if you are american 🙂 ) you can hone after something, but I am not aware you can hone “in on” something? “Homing missiles” are a real thing, on the other hand. “Hone in on” is the original expression on both sides of the pond (and it’s still in widespread use). But it’s not surprising people hear it as home in on and use that instead, because it also makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/65 "2021-08-23T18:57:21Z")
I think it’s the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/66 "2021-08-23T19:03:55Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Eyebrows of Doom obviously didn’t know about the secret drop-down bullets either. Come and join me in the dunces’ room, Eyebrows. If it makes you feel better, I saw them, thought “Huh, those bullet points look they’d expand if I clicked on them,” and then didn’t click on them, because obviously there was no way this message board software could have such arcane sorcery as collapsible bullet points. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/67 "2021-08-23T19:08:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When I used to be much more multilingual, ending sentences with prepositions bothered me… > Who are you going with? > > In order to not end that sentence with a preposition, you would have to reword to “with who(m) are you going”, which sounds a bit unnatural to most contemporary english speakers. A tale / joke my husband LOVES: (Southern lady): Where are y’all from? (Snooty northern lady): Where I’m from, we learn not to end a sentence with a preposition! (Southern lady): Oh, I’m so terribly sorry to have offended, please let me try again. Where are y’all from, bitch? The “where’s the broom at” is definitely not considered standard usage and would be expected from someone less educated. Could of / should of is just plain wrong, and is a misspelling of the identical-sounding contraction “could’ve”. Whom is the objective pronoun while who is the nominative. You forgot split infinitives! You’re never supposed to put an adverb between the “to” and the “verb” e.g. “I’ve learned to walk carefully” vs “I’ve learned to carefully walk”. But there are times where it just sounds better to have it split, and I don’t recall it ever being a big deal in high school English class. Let’s face it: languages evolve. Both based on common usage, and standardization of spelling, and so forth. Something that was Absolutely Correct a hundred year ago is not so today. As far as phrases like “Straighten up” - to my mind. this is sort of a compound verb, rather than a verb followed by a preposition. I wouldn’t straighten down, or straighten over, or straighten on, but I would “straighten up”. I might lie down, but I wouldn’t lie up. Oh - and lie vs lay - you forgot that one?? I was always taught that “lay” was something you did to something else - e.g. “Jane, please lay the fork on the table” versus “Jane, it’s past midnight, time for sleep, go lie down in bed”. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/68 "2021-08-23T19:15:07Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > You forgot split infinitives! You’re never supposed to put an adverb between the “to” and the “verb” e.g. “I’ve learned to walk carefully” vs “I’ve learned to carefully walk”. But there are times where it just sounds better to have it split, and I don’t recall it ever being a big deal in high school English class. I thought about including it, but I’ve only met one proponent of not splitting infinitives in the past ten years or so. Figured it was a dead topic. In high school, though, we had it pounded into us. Much like not using alright, the teachers kept drilling it in, but I kept seeing it in books, so the lessons never took. ETA: I didn’t forget lie/lay. There’s not really much controversy over it, so it didn’t make my list. I do have a handy graphic (for the indicative) I made if anybody wants it. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/69 "2021-08-23T20:29:34Z")
We might add starting a sentence with a conjunction. Do you think that’s okay? Most style guides are fine with it. My best guess is that the rule was really a house rule for schoolteachers to keep their students from starting every sentence with And. Not sure if kids are still being taught that today. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/70 "2021-08-23T21:03:32Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > I consider the subjunctive mood to be so eroded in modern American English that it’s more a matter of style than of grammar. It seems to me that the subjunctive is still used in American English, but essentially gone in British. I had the following experience. A book I was coauthor of was being published in England. The British copy editor marked a dozen or more sentences of the general natural as the example “A necessary and sufficient condition that a functor _have_ …” as wrong and should be replaced with _has_. Of course, we resisted, but I asked around and she was correct in British usage. In my sentence above, I wrote without thinking about it, “A book I was coauthor of” and I consider that completely correct and will not change my usage. Often (but not in that instance) a “preposition” is really an adverb since it has no object. In fact, I consider the distinction between preposition and adverb to be the same as that between transitive and intransitive verbs. And just as many verbs can be used both transitively and intransitively, so many prepositions can also be used as adverbs. Consider the expression “Look up”. And I consider the who/whom distinction a dead issue. It grates on my ear when people use “whom” incorrectly, but doesn’t bother me at all if people use “who” where “whom” would be formally correct. It is almost a tic with the Votemaster (whom I read daily) to use “whomever” when there is no transitive verb or preposition in sight. It seemed to be a conscious choice by Noam Chomsky to never use “whom”. Oh, and I don’t object to split infinitives. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/71 "2021-08-23T21:31:21Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > We might add starting a sentence with a conjunction. Do you think that’s okay? And if not, why? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/72 "2021-08-23T21:36:27Z")
Chicago’s 16th edition offers this quote: > [@](#): > > Next to the groundless notion that it is incorrect to end an English sentence with a preposition, perhaps the most wide-spread of the many false beliefs about the use of our language is the equally groundless notion that it is incorrect to begin one with “but” or “and.” As in the case of the superstition about the prepositional ending, no textbook supports it, but apparently about half of our teachers of English go out of their way to handicap their pupils by inculcating it. One cannot help wondering whether those who teach such a monstrous doctrine ever read any English themselves. > > (Charles Allen Lloyd, We Who Speak English: And Our Ignorance of Our Mother Tongue (New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1938), 19.) Chicago can be a little snarky sometimes. They do, though, go on to warn about using adversative or contrasting conjunctions (like but or yet) in a confusing way. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/73 "2021-08-24T00:58:40Z")
I think that sometimes, people carry descriptive grammar/punctuation/spelling too far. If “anything goes”, eventually there won’t be a mutually understandable language. Not everyone is a Twit, for example. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/74 "2021-08-24T03:09:20Z")
I haven’t seen mention of “myself” in place of “I” or “me”, as in “John, Joe and myself are all here.” It grates on my nerves when I hear it. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/75 "2021-08-24T03:51:08Z")
ETA, I’m not calling anyone a twit, just pointing out that not everyone is aware of the latest Twitter jargon. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/76 "2021-08-24T03:54:27Z")
Also, “Our Strange Lingo” from 1902: > **[Why is Spelling So Confusing in English? - ALTA Language Services](https://www.altalang.com/beyond-words/spelling-confusing-english/)** > > English is often said to be one of the most difficult languages to learn. But why? Well, for starters, English is not phonetic, meaning that there is not “Why English is So Hard” > **["Why English Is So Hard" Poem](https://www.verbling.com/discussion/why-english-is-so-hard-poem)** > > I had never seen this poem prior to teaching English. It really opened my eyes, and I still find it stunning today:-) The complexities of the English language was an every day experience after I st... Related: “Phoney Phonetics” > **[Phoney Phonetics (poem) - Boost your English!](http://boostyourenglish.over-blog.fr/article-phoney-phonetics-poem-37316253.html)** > > Phoney Phonetics. One reason why I cannot spell, Although I learned the rules quite well Is that some words like coup and through Sound just like threw and flue and Who; When oo is never spelled the same, The duice becomes a guessing game; And then... [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/A8zWWp0akUU/hqdefault.jpg "What If English Were Phonetically Consistent?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8zWWp0akUU) Bonus: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/gPlpphT7n9s/maxresdefault.jpg "Shakespeare: Original pronunciation (The Open University)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s) ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/77 "2021-08-24T05:59:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I think that sometimes, people carry descriptive grammar/punctuation/spelling too far. If “anything goes”, eventually there won’t be a mutually understandable language. Not everyone is a Twit, for example.  > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > ETA, I’m not calling anyone a twit, just pointing out that not everyone is aware of the latest Twitter jargon.  Took me a minute. 🙂 It’s not really a matter of anything goes, but there are a lot of things that are both widespread and at least perfunctorily accepted by some of the acknowledged authorities like style guides or dictionaries. For instance, flaunt meaning “disregarded” has an entry in Merriam-Webster. Using your for you’re does not. So we can discuss if and when the first might be right. There’s not much point in doing that for the second. ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/78 "2021-08-24T06:40:30Z")
I seem to remember William Safire pronouncing “hone in on” to be okay because GHW Bush used it so often. I didn’t agree with his reasoning, any more than when he decided that “covert” (the adjective) properly rhymes with “overt”, merely because it was heard so often in the Iran-Contra hearings. Politicians don’t get to decide everything. “On accident” sounds absurdly wrong to me, but if I hadn’t been hearing and saying “on purpose” all my life, I don’t think the preposition would make any more sense there. I’d suggest “by purpose”, or perhaps “with purpose”. Of course, preposition use changes. A couple of hundred years ago, you’d see “independent on” rather than “independent of”, and it does make more logical sense. I’m okay with “alright”, because the two words are used synonymously. Imagine this dialogue–“Are you all right?” “No, but I’m about two thirds right”. You can’t, right? That’s why I’m okay with alright. By the way, I usually spell “okay” “ok”, but I’ve tried to be more correct in this particular post. I reject “OK” because I don’t believe all-caps spellings of words of more than one letter can be right, and also I’m not talking about Oklahoma. “O.K.” is too much trouble for such a common word, and “okay” is ok but it looks too informal to me. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/79 "2021-08-24T11:01:38Z")
And then there’s “waiting for” vs. “waiting on”. I used “waiting for”, except when I’m referring to someone like a server. Is “waiting on” a regionalism? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/80 "2021-08-24T11:57:57Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > “Hone in on” is the original expression on both sides of the pond (and it’s still in widespread use). But it’s not surprising people hear it as home in on and use that instead, because it also makes sense. “Home in” is the earlier usage, but they’re both very recent (comparatively speaking.) “Home in” is first attested in print in 1944; “hone in” first in 1965. > **[Is it 'home in' or 'hone in'?](https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/home-in-or-hone-in)** > > Both are used, but 'home in' does a better job of hitting the mark. > **[World Wide Words: Home in on](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-hom1.htm)** > > The expression 'Home in on' is puzzling enough that people are changing it to 'Hone in on'. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/81 "2021-08-24T12:00:48Z")
Recent discussion here: > [@"waiting for" vs. "waiting on"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/waiting-for-vs-waiting-on/941299): > > This question was inspired by the thread [“in to” vs. “into”](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-to-vs-into/941131) It drives me crazy when I hear something like, “I was waiting on so-and-so to get back to me about my question.” To me, this is a clear example where one should use “waiting for”. The phrase “waiting on” refers specifically to the sort of thing done by waiters and waitresses. It is an act of service, to stand by someone, and wait for their instructions. A lieutenant might wait on a general while the general decides what to do next. B… Here in Chicago, I hear both forms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327.md?page=5)