# Your opinions on English grammar and usage \[Click on each arrow for more\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 22, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327 "2021-08-22T20:56:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/102 "2021-08-25T18:48:03Z")
Putting the “I” second there is etiquette. “I and my friends” is absolutely grammatically correct if you want yourself to head the phrase (and there are good reasons to put yourself in the stressed position.) But, like you said, it does sound stilted, which is why many/most people opt for “me and my friends,” which they perceive as the preferable construction in cases where you want to front the sentence. It’s “wrong” by prescriptivist grammar/formal situations/prestige dialect English, but in colloquial English ain’t nothin’ ungrammatical about it. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2021, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/103 "2021-08-26T00:14:09Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Did I increase my daily exercise or fail to perform it? Is there a dialect in which skip means to increase? If you mean you skipped for the entire walk, that would be a sentence where you’d expect a lot more context than one sentence. Just because a word has more than one potential meaning doesn’t mean you can blithely ignore the context. Also, whether using rope or just skipping like a child, it’s way more hard work than walking. ---
**Author:** ![Rebo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rebo/32/13005_2.png) [@Rebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/104 "2021-08-27T16:09:32Z")
Have we mentioned my personal pet peeve, most often found in business communications? “Please contact **myself** and/or the others if you have any questions.” What the hell is wrong with saying “me” in the above sentence? It’s been used so much that I think everyone believes it is correct usage! Please tell me it’s not. It grates on my ears! ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/105 "2021-08-28T23:45:24Z")
No, it would be “my friends and I.” It is partly etiquette—don’t put yourself first, young lad!—and partly the logical result of thinking “would I say ‘me went to the store’ or ‘I went to the store’, and my friends go first.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/106 "2021-08-28T23:53:38Z")
I think you’re missing my point. My point was that if you wanted to head the phrase, “I and my friends” would be right according to conventional prescriptivist grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/107 "2021-08-28T23:57:18Z")
That’s where the etiquette rule comes in! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/108 "2021-08-29T00:08:24Z")
But there are times you might want to put yourself first for emphasis. The only way that really sounds natural in my dialect is to use “me,” even though it’s “wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/109 "2021-08-29T00:13:25Z")
“I went to the store with my friends” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/110 "2021-08-29T01:07:26Z")
You’re still missing the point. What if I want to write a sentence where I am the very first thing mentioned, because I want to emphasize? I don’t want work-arounds. I want a sentence written that way purposefully. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/111 "2021-08-29T01:09:51Z")
I and my friends are walking out of here right now. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/112 "2021-08-29T01:39:58Z")
> [@Rebo](#): > > Have we mentioned my personal pet peeve, most often found in business communications? > > “Please contact **myself** and/or the others if you have any questions.” > > What the hell is wrong with saying “me” in the above sentence? It’s been used so much that I think everyone believes it is correct usage! Please tell me it’s not. It grates on my ears! Yes, I brought that up in Post #73. Bugs the hell out of me. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/113 "2021-08-29T01:58:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Much like how weird and dramatically formal “It is I” sounds vs the usual “it’s me.” And I’m not sure any English speaker has ever tried the contracted form “it’s I” in actual speech. This thread makes me remember how it goes in the “Canterbury Tales”: > [@](#): > > Who koude ryme in Englyssh proprely > His martirdom? For sothe it am nat I; > Therfore I passe as lightly as I may. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/114 "2021-08-29T02:24:44Z")
It’s the etiquette thing again. It’s like putting the toilet seat down if you’re male. It may be inconvenient but it is what one does. If you need to stress yourself, then you can say, I am going and so are my friends. ---
**Author:** ![LilXMo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lilxmo/32/4225_2.png) [@LilXMo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilXMo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/115 "2021-08-29T07:25:14Z")
In this discussion the passive voice has not been discussed by us… Some English teachers cringe when the passive voice is used by students ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/116 "2021-08-29T08:47:14Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I was taught “My friends and I”, with “I” always last, because it’s polite. Did my teacher lie to me? I don’t know and it doesn’t matter. The two phrases being compared were “Me and my friends”, and “My friends and I”. The primary reason the first is incorrect is because “me” is the wrong word. If the point was to make a distinction between the speaker being first or last in the list then the comparison should have been between “I and my friends” and “My friends and I”. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/117 "2021-08-29T10:51:54Z")
I think that both ‘home in on’ and ‘hone in on’ mean that you are approaching a solution to a problem, whether it is an attempt to hit a target by using a homing missile, or an attempt to find an answer by sharpening the investigative skills you are using. But in the second case it should be ‘we found the answer by honing our skills’, not by ‘honing in’. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/118 "2021-08-29T11:00:18Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > The two phrases being compared were “Me and my friends”, and “My friends and I”. The primary reason the first is incorrect is because “me” is the wrong word. If the point was to make a distinction between the speaker being first or last in the list then the comparison should have been between “I and my friends” and “My friends and I” I’d say not. The phrase ‘I and my friends’ is vanishingly rare, according to this Ngram. It was slightly popular in the early 19th century, but has vanished since then. The real choice is between ‘Me’ first and ‘I’ second. > **[Google Books Ngram Viewer](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=me%2Band%2Bmy%2Bfriends%2Ci%2Band%2Bmy%2Bfriends&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cme%20and%20my%20friends%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ci%20and%20my%20friends%3B%2Cc0)** > > Google Books Ngram Viewer ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/119 "2021-08-29T11:03:56Z")
Here’s the Ngram for “Me and my friends”, and “My friends and I”. The second one wins hands down, as it should, although it looks like ‘Me and my friends’ had a bit of a surge in the 1840s. > **[Google Books Ngram Viewer](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Me%2Band%2Bmy%2Bfriends%2C%2BMy%2Bfriends%2Band%2BI&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2CMe%20and%20my%20friends%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMy%20friends%20and%20I%3B%2Cc0)** > > Google Books Ngram Viewer ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/120 "2021-08-29T13:03:42Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > It’s the etiquette thing again. It’s like putting the toilet seat down if you’re male. It may be inconvenient but it is what one does. If you need to stress yourself, then you can say, I am going and so are my friends. This idea that you have to form a sentence in a “polite” manner or that you have to recast it when it’s inconvenient fails to give credit to the English language for its flexibility. Let me reiterate: “Me and my friends” is not a standard form, but it is colloquial and acceptable in many dialects. You can be writing something in parallel form rhetorically, for example, “\*_Bill_ and Bob worked together; _Jim_ and Bob worked together; _Joe_ and Bob worked together; hell, even _me_ and Bob worked together. Why don’t you and Bob work together?” Once again, nonstandard/colloquial, but if you wanted to write a sentence with that structure, I think to many if not most English speakers, the “me” in an emphatic position would win out to “I.” And, like I said, “I and My Shadow” would make a terrible song title. Or – for some reason this comes to mind – “Me and you are subject to the blues now and then” from “Song Sung Blue.” That “me and you” structure appears in a lot of songs, but that’s the first to come to mind. It’s a cromulent colloquial form and picked because it sounds better than “I and you” or “you and I” to the lyric writer. For example, from an Xfinity ad, a folk song from 1975: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/WCrd5kl-JKw/hqdefault.jpg "Me and You- Barry Louis Polisar") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCrd5kl-JKw) I’m observing that there is apparently a rule in at least some colloquial forms of English that when the first person pronoun is in the initial position of a compound subject, it takes the objective/accusative case “me” rather than subjective/nominative “I.” It’s interesting – or at least it is to me – why spoken English tends to avoid the “I” in this case and favors the “me” (or chickens out and avoids the problem by recasting.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2021, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327/121 "2021-08-29T13:24:00Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Oh - and lie vs lay Everytime somebody says “Laying on the couch,” I go: “What am I, a hen?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-opinions-on-english-grammar-and-usage-click-on-each-arrow-for-more/949327.md?page=7)