# Your papers please- DUI checkpoints now general purpose dragnets. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494 "2010-01-11T08:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/201 "2010-01-16T05:09:14Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what sort of person goes through a DUI checkpoint carrying illegal drugs anyway? It’s not like the checkpoint’s a surprise. If you have meth, or pot, or an open container, why not just dump it before you get there? Where I live, there is more than just the checkpoint. On the approach there are officers, both marked and unmarked, in cars and out, looking for unusual behavior. They have to be visible enough for you to have a chance to turn before you get there, but if they don’t like the looks of how you accomplish that, they are prepared to follow. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/202 "2010-01-16T05:13:18Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > basically, getting busted for marijuana possession (if you’re actually stoned, well then the checkpoint did it’s job, yeah?) Not in California. By law, the stated purpose of the Checkpoints is to encourage safe driving under the law (or some wordsmithed variation on that), not to catch criminals. Hence, since our local stops on NYE nabbed no unsafe drivers, the checkpoint can be argued to be 100% successful. And then argued to no longer be necessary. As if. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/203 "2010-01-16T05:16:53Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > If you’re not doing anything wrong, then who cares? And if you are doing anything wrong then I, and most of the rest of society, am on the side of the law. That is contrary to the organizing principles of American society (and others too). Maybe you heard about Germany in WWII, and what happened when the general population took that attitude towards others? > [@](#): > > Are you opposed to random checks at airports or ports of entry too? Oh hell yeah. “Security theater”, that is all that is. Google it if it is a new term. > [@](#): > > The chance that you may get searched is a huge deterrent for illegal activities at these places, all in the name of public safety: just like on the roadways. Oh but no. You think the millions of people who travel by plane, train and bus that are now subject to search would be blowing up their vehicles if the threat of search was not there? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/204 "2010-01-16T05:20:39Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I cannot reasonably choose to avoid public streets and roadways. You can avoid them perhaps, but not everyone can. Some can’t drive for whatever reason, license, ability, or health, and then can not travel other than by bus, train, or plane, all subject to search. This becomes a Federal issue if the travel is interstate. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/205 "2010-01-16T05:25:02Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Aside from any rights/wrongs for a moment… these seem utterly absurd things to promise - especially the last two. What would be the point of setting them up if anyone who knows they have been drinking can opt out? In CA, that is how the law is defined - to promote safe driving, not to catch crooks. YMMV in other states. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/206 "2010-01-16T05:29:14Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > And, may I add, a completely irrational and almost pathological fear of police officers, who after all, are hired for the sole purpose of ensuring public safety. In my town in CA, the police officers have been shooting people dead at an alarming rate. This happens all across the state. Oakland, Fresno, Inglewood, who knows where else has current cases. None of these are my town. > [@](#): > > Once again, if you’re a reasonably law-abiding citizen you’ve got nothing to fear from a police officer who’s probably making less money than you are and is only doing his/her job. Grow up and cooperate with society. Demonstrably false in my town. I was threatened myself a month ago by an off duty cop who is a neighbor, having a bad day I guess and seeing me walk my dogs past his place as I do every day at that time, ran out of the house shouting I was lucky he didn’t shoot me and the dogs. Which he probably will one day just to be part of the club he is in. Already more than 10 percent have done just that in the last year and a half, and he is senior to most if not all of them. Has to lead by example, right? ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/207 "2010-01-16T05:33:17Z")
Finally used my Goggle-fu to good advantage. Found a reference in a lawyerly report about drunk driving penalties in Washington State that makes reference to a 1988 Washington Supreme Court decision that invalidates the use DUI checkpoints. That is probably why you never hear of them here. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/208 "2010-01-16T05:37:03Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > IN all three countries we have random breath testing (yes its called that because a check point is set up on a road and all are tested via alcohol sniffers first) and in all three countries I have yet to see any resultant drop in freedom as a result of this activity, or some rash of people having problems with the cops. Really? No issues in Australia regarding loss of freedom of speech on the Internet lately? Are you sure? > [@](#): > > In fact in all three countris the breath testing is strongly supported by the “general public”. Here we understand that drink driving is bad, and want to get drunks off the road, we also understand that being asked if we have been drinking is not an invasion of privacy and we don’t have to be scared of the cops. Maybe, but the basic organizing principles of your country is different than ours. Otherwise you would just be a star on our field of blue by now. Just kidding about that last one. 🙂 > [@](#): > > We also understand that the car is NOT going to be searched, unless of course we leave the bong on the dashboard for the cop to see - and if we do that we deserve what’s coming to us. That is not how it ends up working in practice here. Too often, the forced stops are pretext stops. > [@](#): > > Secondly, you know for a fact that the article is lying do you? At least he had an article. Here, we don’t get even that, the PD meets the bare minimum noticing requirements by issuing a press release 2 hours before the checkpoint is set up. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/209 "2010-01-16T05:41:23Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > If a policeman sees someone with a firearm, should the policeman have the authority to ask to see his or her permit? No absent suspicion of a crime that he has good reason to believe will stand up in court. > [@](#): > > Do any factors change your opinion (e.g., concealed or open carry, unusual location, brandishing but not threatening anyone, etc.)? If those rise to the standard I just mentioned, then go ahead and ask. > [@](#): > > I am especially interested in the opinion of those with an opinion opposite to that of the car stop. I suspect arguments could be made for both types of opposite situations (yes car, no weapon; no car, yes weapon). No, it is the same. Absent reasonable suspicion, move along, there is nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/210 "2010-01-16T05:49:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, if we’re going to have DUI checkpoints at all, then all of that is going to be a routine part of the process. What else do you expect?! That a cop, satisfied that you’re not driving drunk, but, finding that your license is suspended or you have a gun on the front seat or you’re wanted for jumping bail, is just going to let you go?! Well, tyeah,if the stop itself is not legal, then any evidence gathered during the stop would be tossed and inadmissible. What you have described is a pretext stop, and that should not fly. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/211 "2010-01-16T05:52:59Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Really? No issues in Australia regarding loss of freedom of speech on the Internet lately? Not that I’m aware of 😕 ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/212 "2010-01-16T05:55:11Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > they have been ruled to be constitutional. and the supreme court decision relied on the fact that preventing DUI How does stopping me and everyone else unlucky enough to be passing a particular point at a particular time prevent DUI? If I don’t know when and where, then cognitively, it is as though it doesn’t exist, just like a speed trap. It is only a pipe dream that it is cognitively a deterrent to others that I had to pass through. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/213 "2010-01-16T05:58:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There are lots of things which, under established law, you can’t do at all without the government’s permission – drive a motor vehicle; practice medicine, law, or any other licensed profession; etc. Of course you can do it. Just not legally. People drive without licenses, or insurance, or with vehicles not up to safety standards all the time. Heck, around here the other day we had an 11 year old drive through a stop sign, killing his entire immediate family. Of course you can drive without being licensed. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/214 "2010-01-16T05:58:35Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > How does stopping me and everyone else unlucky enough to be passing a particular point at a particular time prevent DUI? If I don’t know when and where, then cognitively, it is as though it doesn’t exist, just like a speed trap. It is only a pipe dream that it is cognitively a deterrent to others that I had to pass through. Because when people realise that they can (and will) get caught for DUI anytime, anywhere, they tend to pay a lot more attention to how much they’re drinking and will think a lot more seriously about not drinking, or staying overnight, or getting a taxi, or getting someone sober to drive. There’s no “safe” way to drink-drive, but there’s a huge difference between driving at 70km/h in a school zone (40km/h) at 3:10pm on a Tuesday, and driving at 120km/h on a deserted highway road in the middle of the night, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/215 "2010-01-16T05:59:21Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Does that hold for search warrants too? If they get a search warrant for drugs and find bombs, kiddie porn, and costumes used in a bank robbery sitting out, they should ignore those too? Actually, yes, or they get a new or revised warrant. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/216 "2010-01-16T06:04:02Z")
If they really want to catch drunk drivers, set checkpoints up around a football stadium.But not only would that plug up the roads but it would piss off the rich and powerful owners. But if they are serious, that would be a good place to start. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/217 "2010-01-16T06:06:20Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > And that, I suppose is my reason for ambivalence in this thread. The slippery slope doesn’t seem to have turned out all that slippery - people get stopped and tested for drink driving - innocent people are mildly inconvenienced, guilty people are caught and in the midst of all this, remarkably few people seem to get their doors kicked down in the middle of the night, to be dragged away and never seen again. In my small California town, its the opposite. No one was caught at the New Years Eve dragnet, er, checkpoint, and since mid-November-ish, 2 men are dead who were going about there business on the street, one on foot, one on bike, because they ended up on the wrong end of a police bullet. > [@](#): > > In other words, the system works reasonably well, certainly better than not having it at all, and the cost appears to have been acceptable. I beg to differ. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/218 "2010-01-16T06:19:13Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Not in California. By law, the stated purpose of the Checkpoints is to encourage safe driving under the law (or some wordsmithed variation on that), not to catch criminals. I’m pretty sure driving under the influence is not limited to alcohol. if you’re high on drugs and you get caught at the checkpoint, that’s not going to bring up the “stated purpose” versus “what we’re actually doing” distinction. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/219 "2010-01-16T06:20:25Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Are the police in America just inherently less trustworthy than elsewhere? > (that’s an earnest question, not a potshot) Oh hell yeah. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494/220 "2010-01-16T06:24:47Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Well, we’ve seen the increase in the “Drug War” and the “War on Terrorism”, both of which have been “right reasons”, yet they haven’t extended these “random stops”. That is a whoosh, right? Many if not most of the non-dui arrests at these stops are drug related,for which there was no prior cause. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-papers-please-dui-checkpoints-now-general-purpose-dragnets/524494.md?page=12)