# Your politics are the content of your character **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477 "2016-11-30T18:34:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/81 "2016-12-06T20:52:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You may be confident that certain policies are evil, but I bet I disagree with you on at least some of those judgements. So what if you disagree with me? This thread is about whether it’s reasonable to judge someone’s character based on their political views, not whether we agree on which political views are good or bad, or which ones are important enough to judge someone on. If you actually believe that abortion is killing a baby, then it’s perfectly reasonable for you to judge my character as ‘baby killer’ since I support abortion. I don’t agree with your moral judgement of me being pro-choice, but that’s a completely different question than what’s being discussed in this thread. > [@](#): > > The declaration that your approach is ignorant is not an arbitrary one. It’s an observation that the model you’re using is unlikely to produce dependable results. Please explain exactly how the model of ‘if someone supports political causes that I believe are morally wrong, then I judge that their character is bad’ is unlikely to produce dependable results. If you’re doing more than just baldly declaring ‘you’re ignorant’, explain how you factual evidence of someone’s choices of how to treat other people to judge them is somehow ignorant. > [@](#): > > But if your position is that your model is a useful one for producing objective, verifiable truths about a person, then it’s fair to point out that your expectation is flawed. But you’ve failed to actually explain how it’s flawed. Back to the first example, if you think that abortion is baby-killing, and I support unrestricted abortion rights, it’s objectively, verifiably true that I support a thing that you regard as baby-killing. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/82 "2016-12-06T21:52:57Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > So what if you disagree with me? This thread is about whether it’s reasonable to judge someone’s character based on their political views, not whether we agree on which political views are good or bad, or which ones are important enough to judge someone on. I guess it just depends on how defensible you want that judgment to be outside of the context of your own personal opinion. If you say “Person X is a bad person” and someone asks you why you believe that and you say “They’re a Republican” then that exposes you to judgment yourself as someone who uses a shallow criteria to make moral judgments. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/83 "2016-12-06T22:13:47Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > I guess it just depends on how defensible you want that judgment to be outside of the context of your own personal opinion. If you say “Person X is a bad person” and someone asks you why you believe that and you say “They’re a Republican” then that exposes you to judgment yourself as someone who uses a shallow criteria to make moral judgments. > > Enjoy, > Steven Depends on what you mean by a “bad person”. Saying that someone is a bad person because of their political party isn’t very useful. Saying that someone supports certain polices because they voted for, or are in a party that supports those policies is a very valid statement. Now, it is up to you to decide whether or not supporting those policies makes you a “bad” person. Question, if I say that someone is a bad person, and you ask why, and I reply to telling you that they willingly identify themselves as a nazi, would you feel that I have a point, or would you equivocate on that, and say, well, maybe they’re a good nazi, or even though they are a nazi, they still may be good people. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/84 "2016-12-06T23:59:46Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > I guess it just depends on how defensible you want that judgment to be outside of the context of your own personal opinion. If you say “Person X is a bad person” and someone asks you why you believe that and you say “They’re a Republican” then that exposes you to judgment yourself as someone who uses a shallow criteria to make moral judgments. I don’t expect people who hold opinions that I find abhorrent to agree with me that their positions are abhorrent, and the idea that I would expect them to is just bizarre to me. I do expect people to judge me for any moral stance that I take, so I’m not sure why I’d worried about being ‘exposed to judgement’. I’ve also consistently talked about people who support specific policies in all of my posts in this thread, nothing as generic as ‘they’re a republican’ so I’m not sure why you would use that as an example. And, to go back to the strong case none of you attempt to answer, what if instead of ‘a Republican,’ the person is a swastika wearing, final-solution supporting Nazi (which is a political position that actual people in today’s world take). Should I worry that someone might judge me as shallow for saying ‘well, person X says he thinks Hitler had the right idea, so I think he’s a bad person’? Do you think I’m being unreasonable in judging the person as having bad character on the basis of their political beliefs, or is there a level of awful political belief that you believe is significant to indicate bad character? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/85 "2016-12-07T17:28:45Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I don’t expect people who hold opinions that I find abhorrent to agree with me that their positions are abhorrent, and the idea that I would expect them to is just bizarre to me. I do expect people to judge me for any moral stance that I take, so I’m not sure why I’d worried about being ‘exposed to judgement’. I’ve also consistently talked about people who support specific policies in all of my posts in this thread, nothing as generic as ‘they’re a republican’ so I’m not sure why you would use that as an example. It’s more about how third parties may view it. If you think someone is a bad person then odds are you wouldn’t care how they felt about you, I agree. But you may care about a third party who knew both of you and asked why you felt that way about the person in question. There are people on this board, in this thread, who have put forth the argument that Republican = Evil is a defensible judgment. > [@Pantastic](#): > > And, to go back to the strong case none of you attempt to answer, what if instead of ‘a Republican,’ the person is a swastika wearing, final-solution supporting Nazi (which is a political position that actual people in today’s world take). Should I worry that someone might judge me as shallow for saying ‘well, person X says he thinks Hitler had the right idea, so I think he’s a bad person’? Do you think I’m being unreasonable in judging the person as having bad character on the basis of their political beliefs, or is there a level of awful political belief that you believe is significant to indicate bad character? I judge character by actions. This is my personal stance and that’s pretty much as far as I go. The act of voting for someone is a very minor act to my mind. The choices we have are usually very poor ones, often forcing us to vote against someone rather than for someone, so it’s hard to see the vote as an expression of one’s character. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/86 "2016-12-07T17:59:08Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I believe that the only true morality is that “thou shalt not steal.” I can’t find a reference to it right now, but I think it was eloquently demonstrated in one of Philip Jose Farmer’s books, probably one of the _Riverworld_ books. Really, _everything_ that can be considered “morally wrong” is a form of stealing. Is it morally wrong to steal food to feed your starving child from people who won’t even notice that the foo is missing? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/87 "2016-12-07T20:40:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No. At least, not realistically. The guy who thinks like this will not keep a running total of all the money he didn’t give to these individuals and make sure he gives the same amount to the charity. Heck, he probably will wind up not helping the charity out much at all. If he can rationalize like this when the pressure is on, he will forget when the pressure is off. How do you know this to be true? I look, for example, at my own life. I spend between four and twelve hours per week doing specific charity work that’s relevant to this discussion: volunteering at a shelter. In what way, specifically, have I “…[wound] up not helping the charity out much at all?” > [@](#): > > If you’re judging this man in that way, you don’t really care about him. Out of curiosity, how much time per week do you devote to charitable work? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/88 "2016-12-07T21:46:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you know this to be true? > > I look, for example, at my own life. I spend between four and twelve hours per week doing specific charity work that’s relevant to this discussion: volunteering at a shelter. In what way, specifically, have I “…[wound] up not helping the charity out much at all?” > > Out of curiosity, how much time per week do you devote to charitable work? Out of curiosity, what do you do while volunteering at the homeless shelter? What do you get out of it? Do you feel that the time you spend there is more helpful than if you gave 4-12 hours of your billing? I do some volunteer work in the community, but I will admit that it is pretty much entirely for personal gain. I get alot of networking out of it, clients and vendors and local politicians who I may wish to ask for a favor in the future. I do get personal satisfaction out of doing some community good as well, but once again, that’s a personal gain. What prompts you to do your volunteer work? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/89 "2016-12-07T22:22:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Is it morally wrong to steal food to feed your starving child from people who won’t even notice that the foo is missing? I think the meaning is, if something is “wrong,” it’s always a form of stealing, not that stealing is always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/90 "2016-12-07T22:25:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Just out of curiosity, would you consider nazis to be evil, or would you equivocate that as well? > > I am not being snarky, just trying to get a baseline. Personally, I don’t believe in good and evil, just things that help or harm people, things that cause pleasure or pain, things that save lives or end lives. Putting a label of “good” or “evil” on them complicates things a bit, but it is something that the vast majority of people tend to do. When people say “good” I assume that they are talking about things that advance society in a peaceful and prosperous way, when people say evil, I think of things that do the opposite. > > So I am just wondering, if you are kinda like me in that evil is something that is pretty arbitrary, and hard to pin down, and that is why you nitpick why people call out evil. Or, do you actually believe in an actual state of evil, and you just disagree with those on the left about what that is? > > Would you consider someone who say, turns a blind eye towards a … (throw in your evil boogeymen here, murderer, rapist, child molester, telemarketer) because they promised to move your couch next week someone who enables those activities, or someone who just values getting their couch up a flight of steps? [QUOTE=Neil Gaiman, American Gods] Look — here is a good man, good by his own lights and the lights of his friends: he is faithful and true to his wife, he adores and lavishes attention on his little children, he cares about his country, he does his job punctiliously, as best he can. So, efficiently and good-naturedly, he exterminates Jews: he appreciates the music that plays in the background to pacify them; he advises the Jews not to forget their identification numbers as they go into the showers — many people, he tells them, forget their numbers, and take the wrong clothes when they come out of the showers. This calms the Jews. There will be life, they assure themselves, after the showers. Our man supervises the detail taking the bodies to the ovens; and if there is anything he feels bad about, it is that he still allows the gassing of vermin to affect him. Were he a truly good man, he knows, he would feel nothing but joy as the earth is cleansed of its pests. [/QUOTE] You reminded me of this, and it is a good example of how “moral” judgment can be a fuzzy thing. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/91 "2016-12-07T22:29:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Out of curiosity, what do you do while volunteering at the homeless shelter? What do you get out of it? > > Do you feel that the time you spend there is more helpful than if you gave 4-12 hours of your billing? > > I do some volunteer work in the community, but I will admit that it is pretty much entirely for personal gain. I get alot of networking out of it, clients and vendors and local politicians who I may wish to ask for a favor in the future. I do get personal satisfaction out of doing some community good as well, but once again, that’s a personal gain. What prompts you to do your volunteer work? I am currently retired and spend about 24 hours weekly doing volunteer work. Prior to my retirement I averaged about 10 hours a week for the past 25 years. I feel like I am helping people who need help and somewhat superstitiously believe I am shaking off bad karma from my past, atonement for my sins so to speak. For the record I identify as conservative but the republicans I identify with are few and far between, I may start to identify as a moderate democrat in the future. Just an observation from my own little world. There seems to be a pattern of more conservative types like myself who stay for the long haul when doing volunteer work, most of the liberals I see come in get bored pretty quick and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/92 "2016-12-08T15:50:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Depends on what you mean by a “bad person”. Saying that someone is a bad person because of their political party isn’t very useful. > … > Question, if I say that someone is a bad person, and you ask why, and I reply to telling you that they willingly identify themselves as a nazi, would you feel that I have a point, or would you equivocate on that, and say, well, maybe they’re a good nazi, or even though they are a nazi, they still may be good people. Nazi was a shorthand for the National Socialist party in Germany in the 30s and 40s. Millions of Nazi party members were good people. Some were ignorant of what was being done in their name, or willing to look the other way, or disagreed with the party and were pushing to change it from within. Some were powerless to affect change and if they had resisted they and their families would have suffered for doing so. [Oskar Schindler was a Nazi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler). Modern day Nazis are mostly disaffected youth who are full of bluster and anger, but who have done nothing which could be considered evil. Mostly it seems to be a plea for attention or a cry for help from kids who have lost their way along the increasingly narrowing path towards success in life. More to be pitied than reviled IMO. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/93 "2016-12-08T16:13:48Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Just an observation from my own little world. There seems to be a pattern of more conservative types like myself who stay for the long haul when doing volunteer work, most of the liberals I see come in get bored pretty quick and move on. I actually see the same pattern myself. The conservative types do tend to put in more hours. The liberal types though seem to get more work done. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/94 "2016-12-08T16:37:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Out of curiosity, what do you do while volunteering at the homeless shelter? What do you get out of it? Over the years I have dabbled as a jack-of-all-trades. I have hung a steel door, run a telephone line extension, and pulled out old quarter-rounds before running a floor sander over the dining hall, after going to the rental place to get the floor sander. Usually I am one of the unload food donations/stock pantry/wash pans unskilled labor force. I get out of it the fulfillment of a desire to help those that need help. > [@](#): > > Do you feel that the time you spend there is more helpful than if you gave 4-12 hours of your billing? Yes, although I also buy things for use there and thus contribute some money. But by being there in person, I can credibly urge others to also participate, and we have a steady stream of folks from the local KofC councils that have assisted. Some try it for a while and drift away; others click and stay. That benefit would not exist if I were merely writing a check. (Although checks are never unwelcome; there’s always more to buy than money to buy with). > [@](#): > > I do some volunteer work in the community, but I will admit that it is pretty much entirely for personal gain. I get alot of networking out of it, clients and vendors and local politicians who I may wish to ask for a favor in the future. I do get personal satisfaction out of doing some community good as well, but once again, that’s a personal gain. What prompts you to do your volunteer work? There is zero business benefit in it for me. I believe that we are called, personally, to help others – that it is a duty imposed upon rich and poor alike by Christ. So if you like the “there is no such thing as true altruism” model of the world, I guess you could say I do it because the boss told me to. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477/95 "2016-12-08T17:02:24Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Just an observation from my own little world. There seems to be a pattern of more conservative types like myself who stay for the long haul when doing volunteer work, most of the liberals I see come in get bored pretty quick and move on. I see a lot of liberal volunteers who show up, get vaguely offended that they are not immediately placed in charge of cooking or permitted to rearrange the menu, and instead are asked to scour pans. They drift away. I see a lot of conservative religiously inclined folks who show up and are distraught that there is no proselytizing or conversion effort afoot. They are apparently willing to work but believe the food and shelter should come with a side dish of the gospel. They don’t last long, either. Then there are the folks I have come to think of as the battle scarred leftists. They show up reliably, they do the work uncomplainingly, and the place would shut down without them. For some reason these guys are almost always rail skinny and middle-aged or older. I know they’re lefties because they enjoy needling me about being a righty. And then there are the conservatives, almost always Christian but not wedded to preaching. That’s my niche. So it’s not at all a liberal/conservative divide. It’s a seriousness about the idea of helping for help’s sake divide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-politics-are-the-content-of-your-character/773477.md?page=4)