# Your self-identification can be wrong. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2010, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284 "2010-07-11T08:50:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/61 "2010-07-13T13:37:26Z")
Considering that Christ means the annointed one, it would seem silly to call oneself a Christian if they don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. At the very least he would have to be a special prophet of God. Otherwise the word ‘Christ’ is meaningless. The teachings of Jesus was not unique from a historical perspective. Many of the Axial religions throughout the world had a variation of the golden rule. I’m sure primitive societies had the golden rule. Other teachings of Jesus were also espoused before him and during his time. Secular humanists follow the golden rule and many of them are atheists. Now I could see someone who doesn’t believe in the supernatural things but goes to church with Christians and pretends to be a Christian. I’m sure there’s lots of ‘Christians’ like that. They’re just closet atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/62 "2010-07-13T17:52:11Z")
The problem with having some criterion other than self-identification for being a member of a group (Christians, Jews, what have you) is, who gets to decide who really is a member of the group and who isn’t? Whoever gets to decide who is and who isn’t a member of a group that some people consider important has a lot of power. You want to be careful who you give that kind of power to. We Jews are [arguing over this issue](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F), too. I converted to Judaism through the Conservative movement, so there are some Jews who would say I’m not Jewish. I don’t accept their claim to have the authority to determine who is a Jew and who isn’t. Just because somebody says they have a system for determining who is a member of group X and who isn’t, doesn’t mean everybody has to accept that system. Interestingly enough, the Catholic Church, AFAIK, would consider me still a Christian, since I was baptized (in one of the denominations whose baptisms they accept as valid) as a baby. I don’t consider myself a Christian, and I don’t accept their claim that I am one. There’s another definition of a Christian to throw out there for debate- anyone who has been baptized. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/63 "2010-07-13T18:03:19Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You’re extremely wrong about this one. A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ. You don’t have to believe he was literally a superhero anymore than you have to literally believe that [all the trees of the field will clap their hands](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+55%3A12&version=NIV) If you believe in him. if you follow his teachings you pretty much have to believe that he is the son of God and does have super powers, as [John 3](http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=John+3&ver=kjv) makes clear. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/64 "2010-07-13T18:17:43Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > if you follow his teachings you pretty much have to believe that he is the son of God and does have super powers, as [John 3](http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=John+3&ver=kjv) makes clear. No you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/65 "2010-07-13T18:27:46Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > No you don’t. Well his teachings say he is. Are you using some “gotcha” definition of “follow” that excludes “believe”? ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/66 "2010-07-13T21:13:25Z")
Disagree with the OP due to forced pigeonholing of 300+ million (or more) people. It’s just not that black and white. Sure there are a few people that will flat out deny their true colors, but that’s a incredibly small number while there are people (like me) who are looking at conservatism and liberalism and wonder which is the lesser of the two evils on a day to day basis just by reading and listening to the news. Lately, all I see is stupidity on both sides. From city politics on up to national politics, each side has it’s merits, but spews much more short-sighted stupidity with the idea that it is for the betterment of the community, while it damages us further. I also believe Peter denied Jesus three times, even though he was a Christian. Didn’t make him an atheist now, did it? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/67 "2010-07-13T21:45:21Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well his teachings say he is. Are you using some “gotcha” definition of “follow” that excludes “believe”? Read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/68 "2010-07-14T17:01:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Read the thread. These cryptic replies are a bit short of convincing. If one is a follower of Jesus’ teachings, one must believe in him, as I cited. And to believe in him is to believe that he has supernatural powers. It is all there in John 3. Perhaps it is you who needs to do a bit of reading. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/69 "2010-07-14T17:13:45Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > These cryptic replies are a bit short of convincing. > > If one is a follower of Jesus’ teachings, one must believe in him, as I cited. And to believe in him is to believe that he has supernatural powers. It is all there in John 3. Perhaps it is you who needs to do a bit of reading. Lord knows how many people selectively follow Jesus’s teachings. Just because they believe in his divinity and ignore everything else doesn’t mean they get to call themselves Christian, while those who think he was a pretty cool guy and follow most of his suggestions for bettering one’s life does not. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/70 "2010-07-14T17:15:00Z")
I’ve had a lot of girls say this with a straight face “I’m pro life but i am perfectly ok with other women making their own decisions”. It got very annoying very fast trying to explain to them that that makes them pro choice. I think there was a mental block with admitting that they were not pro life because that would be a Big Deal in their families. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/71 "2010-07-14T17:20:33Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > These cryptic replies are a bit short of convincing. Look, troll, you and I have been through this before. Enough times that I knew what you were doing and what you were going to do as soon as I saw your name in the thread. You’re asking questions that I’ve already addressed. If you really want to know the answers, read the goddamn thread. If this is some bizarre shtick you feel like you have to perform to live up to your username, just leave me the fuck out of it. It’s not funny. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/72 "2010-07-14T17:22:11Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Lord knows how many people selectively follow Jesus’s teachings. Just because they believe in his divinity and ignore everything else doesn’t mean they get to call themselves Christian, while those who think he was a pretty cool guy and follow most of his suggestions for bettering one’s life does not. I feel fairly confident in saying that pretty much everyone who says they follow the teachings of Jesus does so selectively. Some people are honest enough to admit it; others are not. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/73 "2010-07-14T17:23:40Z")
Through the teachings of Jesus Christ, I have finally beaten level 8-4 of Super Mario Bros. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/74 "2010-07-14T17:25:13Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > if you follow his teachings you pretty much have to believe that he is the son of God and does have super powers, as [John 3](http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=John+3&ver=kjv) makes clear. Untrue. One may decide, for instance, that since the Gospel of John was written much later than the other Gospels, and is quite obviously inconsistent with the narrative the others present, that it should be treated as less reliable than Mark, thought to be the oldest extant Gospel. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/75 "2010-07-14T17:29:56Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Let me get this straight, **Bith**. You are saying that if someone claims to be X, but doesn’t fit with your narrow definition of X, then they are not X. > > Do you realize how stupid and self centered that is? You seem to be proposing that we should accept everyone’s self-iidentification at face value, or else we are stupid and self-centered. An interesting notion. Evil Captor, sex god and king of the universe ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/76 "2010-07-14T17:50:20Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Look, troll, you and I have been through this before. Enough times that I knew what you were doing and what you were going to do as soon as I saw your name in the thread. You’re asking questions that I’ve already addressed. If you really want to know the answers, read the goddamn thread. I’ve read the thread. You have not addressed my questions. As to the rest of your screed, I have no idea what you’re talking about. But at least an _ad hominem_ attack is an argument. Sort of. Not a very good one, but an argument. > [@](#): > > If this is some bizarre shtick you feel like you have to perform to live up to your username, just leave me the fuck out of it. It’s not funny. [It’s a musical term.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contrapuntal) [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] Untrue. One may decide, for instance, that since the Gospel of John was written much later than the other Gospels, and is quite obviously inconsistent with the narrative the others present, that it should be treated as less reliable than Mark, thought to be the oldest extant Gospel. [/QUOTE] I see. So one is free to pick and choose which of Jesus’ teachings one should follow? Is there a lower limit to this? Could I pick, say, one teaching to follow and still be a Christian? Would I have to follow it all the time, or just when the mood strikes me? Still a Christian then? You folks have defined “Christian” so weakly as to be of no use whatsoever. Hell, anyone who pays taxes is a Christian, right? If you google “Christianity central belief” every response on the first page agrees with me;, i.e, that belief in Christ as the son of God (what Cisco would call “superpowers”) is crucial. It’s hardly a radical position. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/77 "2010-07-14T18:03:32Z")
I’m still trying to find the verse in John 3 that says anything about supernatural powers. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/78 "2010-07-14T18:11:33Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’m still trying to find the verse in John 3 that says anything about supernatural powers. Transportation to heaven and the granting of everlasting life. Do you consider these to be natural phenomona? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/79 "2010-07-14T18:20:00Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I’ve read the thread. You have not addressed my questions. Read again. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > As to the rest of your screed, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Yeah, I knew you’d say that. You’re not funny, you’re not clever, you’re not contributing anything to the discussion. You’re just plain trolling to get people’s hackles up. Everything you’ve asked has been addressed, and there is absolutely nothing “cryptic” about “read the thread.” It’s about as crystal clear as it gets. I’m not repeating myself like you always goad me into doing so you can perform an endless string of “gotcha” definitions and logical acrobats to amuse yourself. For the last time: if you’re being genuine, then read the thread and respond to what I’ve already posted. Otherwise Fuck. Off. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284/80 "2010-07-14T18:23:22Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Transportation to heaven and the granting of everlasting life. Do you consider these to be natural phenomona? Yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-self-identification-can-be-wrong/546284.md?page=5)