# Your take on Obama releasing secret Bush administration memos **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226 "2009-03-04T01:40:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/1 "2009-03-04T01:40:47Z")
I searched “Obama” and it doesn’t seem this has been posted yet. That surprises me. My bro e-mailed this to me and a couple other sibs. [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-documentsmar03,0,6427490.story](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-documentsmar03,0,6427490.story) _WASHINGTON—The Obama administration on Monday made public nine long-secret legal memos setting out an extraordinarily broad interpretation of presidential power that was used by the Bush White House to justify its actions in the war on terror, including one 2001 opinion authorizing the military to treat terrorist suspects in the U.S. like an invading army that lacked constitutional rights._ Mini-cat fight between bro and sis ensued via e-mail. They really don’t talk to each other like that IRL. What’s up with this? I am most certainly not a fan of W’s work, but it seems like we forgive our former leaders once they’re out of office. That said, I like the idea of “Hey, while this is still fresh in our minds…” Why do you think Obama is doing this (and appears to plan to continue to do it)? What does he hope to gain, and will he? I decided some time ago that politicians are all liars etc. so I don’t follow politics nearly as much as I should. If it’s ignorance you’re hoping to fight, WRT politics I’m your poster child! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/2 "2009-03-04T01:58:53Z")
There is a big difference between releasing these memos and charging a Bush administration member with a crime. Obama clearly believes (thank Og) that decisions should be made transparently as possible, within national security constraints. Since these don’t apply to these memos, I don’t see a problem. The big plus is that perhaps future administrations will be more careful about pushing our freedoms if they know that the justification will be released once they leave office. Maybe future Yoos won’t be so ready to say the Constitution doesn’t hold in cases like this if they feel history looking over their shoulder. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/3 "2009-03-04T02:12:18Z")
So **Voyager** , you think it’s just “for the record” or maybe “setting the tone”? I wondered if it is supposed to pave the way for withdrawing troops or otherwise downgrading the war. I.e., like saying, “See, we shouldn’t have been doing these things in the first place” would make the public think we need to get outta there. Am I wrong in thinking that releasing information from past presidencies like this is unusual? It seems Russian to me…blame the past leaders for current woes. Deservedly so in this case IMO but that’s beside the point. I don’t recall an ex-president’s dirty laundry being aired right after he left office. Supposing four years hence a Republican is back in the White House, I wonder if this will become SOP for incoming presidents…root through the old files etc. 😃 From the same article: _The memos also show that five days before leaving office, the Bush Justice Department issued a secret retraction of some of the most sweeping definitions of presidential authority that its own lawyers had authored._ Huh?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/4 "2009-03-04T03:34:57Z")
Rule of Law only lasts so long as everyone preserves it. If everyone goes, “Meh, preserving the Constitution and legality and all that is too much a hassle, let’s go back to monarchy!” Well then that’s what it will be, regardless of what all the laws of our nation say. So pretty much, reminding people what happens when they stop caring about Rule of Law is about the only defense there is. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/5 "2009-03-04T03:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Am I wrong in thinking that releasing information from past presidencies like this is unusual? No it’s standard. Administrative documents do not belong to the occupants of the office. They’re public records. In theory, every document gets released eventually but the release of many are delayed for reasons of security or courtesy. Bush greatly restricted the release of documents when he was President. But his authority ended when he left office. Obama has apparently decided to overturn Bush’s directions and release some documents ahead of schedule instead. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/6 "2009-03-04T03:52:12Z")
As long as Obama follows the law and norms of ethics when he does it, I’m okay. There is nothing against the law or unethical for the government to declassify formerly secret documents in and of itself. Did it expose any undercover agents or networks or anything like that? No. I wouldn’t be perturbed if Atty Gen Holder decided to convene a grand jury to decide to indict any of the Bushies for crimes, assuming that he had evidence constituting probable cause. Bush and his gang were a loathsome bunch who had the appearance to me of being recklessly unlawful, the wiretaps, Gitmo etc. They made little effort to dispel this appearance. It is not alright with me if my government is run by people who do the things the Bushies did on the wrong side of international and constitutional law. When I was a youth, I thought that Ford was right in closing off the prosecution of Nixon. Well into middle age I am still wary of it, it was a practice that did the Athenians and Romans no end of ill. But the Bush gang appear so corrupt that failure to fully investigate and prosecute will only encourage them again the next time their crowd is in the White House or a Congressional majority. And there will be a next time. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/7 "2009-03-04T04:00:24Z")
It is also important to note that the memos released demonstrate what many people, myself included, consider to be terrible and probably unconstitutional policies, unless you believe as GWB and his cohorts did that the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments are optional during wartime. When there is continuity in following constitutional policy, as there was through the Clinton administration dating back to at least the Andrew Johnson impeachment trial (excepting the Japanese internment camps and depending on whether or not you agreed with the Spanish American war and/or the annexation of Hawaii) there was no need to release the prior administrations patently offensive policy position papers. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/8 "2009-03-04T04:00:55Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Am I wrong in thinking that releasing information from past presidencies like this is unusual? It seems Russian to me…blame the past leaders for current woes. Deservedly so in this case IMO but that’s beside the point. I don’t recall an ex-president’s dirty laundry being aired right after he left office. Mmm, cast your mind back [about eight years:](http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/top/features/documents/03789077.asp) > [@](#): > > Bush, after all, has made exceptions to his closed-mouth policy in order to declassify material embarrassing to his political opponents. Shortly after he took office, he allowed the declassification of _partial_ transcripts of phone calls between former president Bill Clinton and Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, dealing with Clinton’s controversial last-minute pardon of fugitive financier Marc Rich, who had been convicted of tax-evasion, among other things. When Clinton requested that the full transcripts be released, Bush refused. And in April, the Bush administration allowed Jamie Gorelick’s 1995 national-security memo, authored when she was a deputy attorney general in the Clinton administration, to be declassified solely so that Ashcroft could use it to take potshots at Gorelick, now a member of the 9/11 commission, during his testimony before that body. On the whole, however, the Bush administration was fairly averse to public release of official documents. So to some extent, what Obama’s doing is a **re-reversal** of Bush’s reversal of the former policy of releasing documents from previous administrations: > [@](#): > > Between March and August 2001, for instance, the White House issued three successive orders to the National Archives to postpone the scheduled public release of some 68,000 pages of Reagan-era documents. But in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks, Bush took advantage of the confusion and fear to accelerate his restrictive agenda. On October 15, 2001, the Justice Department issued new rules for how agencies should handle Freedom of Information Act requests, reversing the Clinton administration’s policy of making files available by default if there was no apparent reason to keep them classified. The new policy required an affirmative reason to declassify the files. Then, on November 1, 2001, the White House added Executive Order 13233, allowing the sitting president to block disclosure of past presidential records even when past presidents want records disclosed. Now, does that mean I think there is **no** political advantage being sought in the Obama administration’s decision to release these memos? Hell no. The current administration is well aware that the Republican Party’s stock with the public is fairly low at the moment, and that revelations of this sort aren’t likely to increase their popularity. I think the Dems are probably managing to live with the gnawing remorse and vicarious pain that this awareness is inflicting on them. > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Supposing four years hence a Republican is back in the White House, I wonder if this will become SOP for incoming presidents…root through the old files etc. If so, then I say bring it on. I think **all** Presidents should have to live with the salutary awareness that whatever soiled administrative linen they generate may end up being flapped in the public’s face as soon as they clean out their desks. (With the necessary exceptions for serious national security concerns, natch.) IMO, that would be a great example of co-opting political partisanship into the service of the public’s right to know. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/9 "2009-03-04T05:47:33Z")
The government has a responsibility to classify and conceal certain information for reasons of national security. Presidential embarrassment is not a national security issue, and ex-presidential embarrassment ain’t the same ballpark (ain’t the same league, ain’t even the same fuckin’ sport!) If Bush had done his job right, these papers would already be out there (if he had done his job right, some of them would never had existed in the first place). ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/10 "2009-03-04T11:10:41Z")
I should point out that these releases are, at least in part, because of a lawsuit against John Yoo by Jose Pedilla. [http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/03/03/america/03terror2.php](http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/03/03/america/03terror2.php) ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/11 "2009-03-04T12:38:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No it’s standard. Administrative documents do not belong to the occupants of the office. They’re public records. In theory, every document gets released eventually but the release of many are delayed for reasons of security or courtesy. Bush greatly restricted the release of documents when he was President. But his authority ended when he left office. Obama has apparently decided to overturn Bush’s directions and release some documents ahead of schedule instead. So they were classified because Bush claimed they deserved the status on the basis of national security, when in fact the reason was because it would make him look bad? Nice…but I totally expected that. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > As long as Obama follows the law and norms of ethics when he does it, I’m okay. There is nothing against the law or unethical for the government to declassify formerly secret documents in and of itself. Did it expose any undercover agents or networks or anything like that? No. I wouldn’t be perturbed if Atty Gen Holder decided to convene a grand jury to decide to indict any of the Bushies for crimes, assuming that he had evidence constituting probable cause. > > Bush and his gang were a loathsome bunch who had the appearance to me of being recklessly unlawful, the wiretaps, Gitmo etc. They made little effort to dispel this appearance. It is not alright with me if my government is run by people who do the things the Bushies did on the wrong side of international and constitutional law. When I was a youth, I thought that Ford was right in closing off the prosecution of Nixon. Well into middle age I am still wary of it, it was a practice that did the Athenians and Romans no end of ill. But the Bush gang appear so corrupt that failure to fully investigate and prosecute will only encourage them again the next time their crowd is in the White House or a Congressional majority. And there will be a next time. Agreed, up to the part about Ford (unsure about that, hadn’t considered it). > [@zamboniracer](#): > > It is also important to note that the memos released demonstrate what many people, myself included, consider to be terrible and probably unconstitutional policies, unless you believe as GWB and his cohorts did that the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments are optional during wartime. Whatever you do, don’t talk to my sister. She’ll defend him to her dying breath. I was tempted to quote Ben Franklin et al, but nah. I don’t have the energy. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Mmm, cast your mind back [about eight years:](http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/top/features/documents/03789077.asp) As I said, I don’t follow politics closely at all. Interesting to learn that. Interesting too how by releasing selective portions it could be spun and used to advantage. Next quote is WRT release/accountability— > [@Kimstu](#): > > If so, then I say bring it on. I think **all** Presidents should have to live with the salutary awareness that whatever soiled administrative linen they generate may end up being flapped in the public’s face as soon as they clean out their desks. (With the necessary exceptions for serious national security concerns, natch.) IMO, that would be a great example of co-opting political partisanship into the service of the public’s right to know. Agreed but again that spin thing, I don’t know. My dad used to say that you may hate the president, but you have to protect the integrity of the office. Bush is gone and won’t be back but he soiled what the world thinks of the presidential office IMO. What result there will be (beyond public embarrassment) remains to be seen, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/12 "2009-03-04T13:12:49Z")
I think it is a bit disingenuous to cast this as typical practice, because I think (at least fervently hope) that it has not been typical practice for Presidential administrations to propose setting aside the Bill of Rights and deploy the military against US citizens within the United States. And hell yes the people who did this need to be examined, and any wrongdoing needs to be held to account. ETA: It should also be additional warning to us all that we should never put any political party before the good of the country, no matter how much we hate liberal hippies. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/13 "2009-03-04T14:34:04Z")
I was going to start this thread yesterday, when I was startled to see that nobody had yet mentioned it, and all well and good that we now have a debate thread about it, but does it strike anyone else as… curious… that the topic is not “holy SHIT… the Bush Admin was prepared to LITERALLY toss aside the Bill of Rights like a condom wrapper??” but the rather FoxNewsCrawlishly-phrased “what does **Obama** have to gain by revealing that (_Bush, Bill of Rights, condom wrapper, et cetera_)??” It’s become fashionable here of late to titter at the more paranoid among us who suggested it wasn’t out of the realm of possible things that Bush would find a creative way to remain in office at the end of his term. Now that he’s gone the notion does seem ludicrous—but only slightly more so than what they were demonstrably ready to do, eh? . I thought I’d become desensitized to outrage, but I guess the show’s not over yet. (And why the hell isn’t this story bigger news?) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/14 "2009-03-04T16:05:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Your take on Obama releasing secret Bush administration memos “A good start.” ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/15 "2009-03-04T16:27:46Z")
I look forward to the next president rooting through documents from the Obama administration. If Obama holds to the doctrine of transparency he’s been so strong in espousing, there will be nothing embarrassing or incriminating to be found. If there is such, I’d really like to know about it to properly evaluate his presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/16 "2009-03-04T16:30:23Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > ETA: It should also be additional warning to us all that we should never put any political party before the good of the country, no matter how much we hate liberal hippies. This made me laugh. It’s funny, it’s true, and it’s funny 'cause it’s true! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/17 "2009-03-04T17:02:19Z")
I applaud Obama for releasing the memos. I think it’s important that we know just how much power the Bush White House thought that it had and how many civil liberties it was willing to sacrifice in the name of fighting terrorism. We need to see just how close the US came to being a banana republic and if it gives some groundswell to put these criminals in the prison where they belong, that’s great too. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/18 "2009-03-04T17:11:29Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I look forward to the next president rooting through documents from the Obama administration. If Obama holds to the doctrine of transparency he’s been so strong in espousing, there will be nothing embarrassing or incriminating to be found. If there is such, I’d really like to know about it to properly evaluate his presidency. I agree, and I am an unabashed fan of Obama. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/19 "2009-03-04T18:17:13Z")
Wait a minute. A guy secretly writes memos that gives himself special powers and he keeps these memos secret and then he acts on his new secret powers without telling anyone (outside of the Justice League I mean)? Does this seem insane to anyone else? Right now I am working on a secret memo giving myself new secret powers. Sorry, can’t tell you what those powers are but anyone who complains about me grabbing women’s butts hates America and needs to be punished. I think it is imperative that these memos be released so that the citizens of the US can prepare for similar tactics from the current and future POTUSes. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/20 "2009-03-04T19:03:22Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > So they were classified because Bush claimed they deserved the status on the basis of national security, when in fact the reason was because it would make him look bad? Nice…but I totally expected that. But you totally expected that because it was totally true. If Bush thought it was important to suspend the constitution to catch terrorists, then why keep it secret? Because the idiot American people wouldn’t like it if they found out the constitution was more of a guideline than a rule, so let’s not tell them? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226.md?page=2)