# Your take on Obama releasing secret Bush administration memos **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226 "2009-03-04T01:40:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/21 "2009-03-04T20:26:19Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > So **Voyager** , you think it’s just “for the record” or maybe “setting the tone”? I wondered if it is supposed to pave the way for withdrawing troops or otherwise downgrading the war. I.e., like saying, “See, we shouldn’t have been doing these things in the first place” would make the public think we need to get outta there. That’s a done deal now - even McCain buys in. Anyhow, these documents are about warrantless wiretaps and the justification for torture, at least in the articles I read, not the war. > [@](#): > > Am I wrong in thinking that releasing information from past presidencies like this is unusual? It seems Russian to me…blame the past leaders for current woes. Deservedly so in this case IMO but that’s beside the point. I don’t recall an ex-president’s dirty laundry being aired right after he left office. You must be too young to remember Richard Nixon. In any case, many of these documents would have been released while the president was in office before now. > [@](#): > > Supposing four years hence a Republican is back in the White House, I wonder if this will become SOP for incoming presidents…root through the old files etc. 😃 If Obama starts to tread on our Constitutional rights, I sure hope the files are opened. Maybe you are forgetting that these guys are supposed to be working for us. > [@](#): > > From the same article: > > _The memos also show that five days before leaving office, the Bush Justice Department issued a secret retraction of some of the most sweeping definitions of presidential authority that its own lawyers had authored._ > > Huh?😕 Duh. You know all that stuff that Bush was allowed to do? Obama isn’t. What do you expect from a Justice Department full of politicized twats from a Bible College. I’m surprised you’re surprised. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/22 "2009-03-04T20:48:06Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … On the whole, however, the Bush administration was fairly averse to public release of official documents. So to some extent, what Obama’s doing is a **re-reversal** of Bush’s reversal of the former policy of releasing documents from previous administrations … It’s a good thing. There needs to be more transparency. There needs to be more openness. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/23 "2009-03-04T21:05:12Z")
One of my favorite parts of the released documents was the OLC’s opinion made just this January, at the very end of the Bush Administration. It starts: “The purpose of this memorandum is to confirm that certain propositions stated in several opinions issued by the Office of Legal Counsel in 2001-2003 respecting the allocation of authorities between the President and Congress in matters of war and national security do not reflect the current views of this Office.” Funny how that happens, ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/24 "2009-03-04T21:40:57Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I think it is a bit disingenuous to cast this as typical practice, because I think (at least fervently hope) that it has not been typical practice for Presidential administrations to propose setting aside the Bill of Rights and deploy the military against US citizens within the United States. > > And hell yes the people who did this need to be examined, and any wrongdoing needs to be held to account. > > ETA: It should also be additional warning to us all that we should never put any political party before the good of the country, no matter how much we hate liberal hippies. Agreed and re: ETA—that to me is one of the scarier parts of this. Had McCain been elected, there’s no way these things would have been released for at least another 4 years. By that time, fewer and fewer people would care. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I was going to start this thread yesterday, when I was startled to see that nobody had yet mentioned it, and all well and good that we now have a debate thread about it, but does it strike anyone else as… curious… that the topic is not “holy SHIT… the Bush Admin was prepared to LITERALLY toss aside the Bill of Rights like a condom wrapper??” but the rather FoxNewsCrawlishly-phrased “what does **Obama** have to gain by revealing that (_Bush, Bill of Rights, condom wrapper, et cetera_)??” > > It’s become fashionable here of late to titter at the more paranoid among us who suggested it wasn’t out of the realm of possible things that Bush would find a creative way to remain in office at the end of his term. Now that he’s gone the notion does seem ludicrous—but only slightly more so than what they were demonstrably ready to do, eh? > . > I thought I’d become desensitized to outrage, but I guess the show’s not over yet. (And why the hell isn’t this story bigger news?) Quoting my sister: _What nobody stops to consider is that after 911 we were not attacked on our soil again. Do you think Iran or bin laden gives a sh_t about the World Court or the Geneva Convention? Ask Daniel Pearl… ask any of our soldiers who were beheaded while in the care of Iran or bin laden. As I recall hearing, Daniel Pearl couldn’t say much once they started hacking his head off, even the screaming stopped, didn’t it, once they cut through the vocal cords? We can sit back and play nice but they don’t play nice back. We water-boarded and American lives were saved… that’s the bottom line to me. I have no time for Obama’s class act of releasing these memos. Wasn’t he the one who was only going to look forward, and wasn’t interested in pursuing anything against George Bush? And isn’t he the one who is now corresponding secretly with Russia, offering to do away with missile defense in Europe, leaving our FRIENDS in Europe vulnerable? \* As my brother replied, how can you stoop to their level and still call yourself the good guy? Of course, as pointed out, the memos talk about setting the stage for Gitmo and using soldiers on our own soil…but let’s see what else they dig up. It seems to be driven by fear. “Surely you don’t want Jones to return, comrades?” > [@Bosstone](#): > > I look forward to the next president rooting through documents from the Obama administration. If Obama holds to the doctrine of transparency he’s been so strong in espousing, there will be nothing embarrassing or incriminating to be found. If there is such, I’d really like to know about it to properly evaluate his presidency. It might not be a bad tradition to start. But like I said if they don’t release all the information, it’s easy to quote out of context and mislead people. > [@Voyager](#): > > That’s a done deal now - even McCain buys in. Anyhow, these documents are about warrantless wiretaps and the justification for torture, at least in the articles I read, not the war. > > You must be too young to remember Richard Nixon. In any case, many of these documents would have been released while the president was in office before now. I remember Tricky Dick, though I was young. Case in point about what I was saying earlier: they went after him while in office. > [@Voyager](#): > > If Obama starts to tread on our Constitutional rights, I sure hope the files are opened. Maybe you are forgetting that these guys are supposed to be working for us. > > Duh. You know all that stuff that Bush was allowed to do? Obama isn’t. What do you expect from a Justice Department full of politicized twats from a Bible College. I’m surprised you’re surprised. _Sigh,_ whatever happened to that whole “checks and balances” thing? > [@Hamlet](#): > > One of my favorite parts of the released documents was the OLC’s opinion made just this January, at the very end of the Bush Administration. > > It starts: “The purpose of this memorandum is to confirm that certain propositions stated in several opinions issued by the Office of Legal Counsel in 2001-2003 respecting the allocation of authorities between the President and Congress in matters of war and national security do not reflect the current views of this Office.” > > Funny how that happens, ain’t it. I wonder how many of us were on double-secret probation :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/25 "2009-03-04T21:50:24Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Am I wrong in thinking that releasing information from past presidencies like this is unusual? It seems Russian to me…blame the past leaders for current woes. Deservedly so in this case IMO but that’s beside the point. I don’t recall an ex-president’s dirty laundry being aired right after he left office. Nixon’s was, but that was a special case. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/26 "2009-03-04T21:52:53Z")
Next, they should release all those Reagan Admin files. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/27 "2009-03-04T22:00:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nixon’s was, but that was a special case. So were LBJ’s and JFK’s, although ironically, (or maybe not) Nixon tried to protect them. > **[Pentagon Papers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers)** > > The Pentagon Papers, officially titled Report of the Office of the Secretary of Defense Vietnam Task Force, is a United States Department of Defense history of the United States' political and military involvement in Vietnam from 1945 to 1968. Released by Daniel Ellsberg, who had worked on the study, it was made public on the front page of The New York Times in 1971. A 1996 article in The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, among other things, that Lyndon B. Johns T... ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/28 "2009-03-04T22:03:58Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Wait a minute. A guy secretly writes memos that gives himself special powers and he keeps these memos secret and then he acts on his new secret powers without telling anyone (outside of the Justice League I mean)? Does this seem insane to anyone else? It’s only insane if other people aren’t stupid enough to go along with it. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/29 "2009-03-05T11:41:35Z")
> **[National Post](https://nationalpost.com/?id=1345912)** > > Read latest breaking news, updates, and headlines. National Post offers information on latest national and international events & more. \*NEW YORK – The Central Intelligence Agency admitted Monday it has destroyed 92 tapes of harsh interrogation sessions of terror suspects – 90 more than it had previously acknowledged destroying. The admission came as U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder pledged against the use of the simulated drowning technique known as water-boarding, which is one of the methods believed to appear on at least some of the tapes.\* Gee, it was wrong, they knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway. If they were in the right legally or morally, there would be no need to destroy them. Makes you wonder if the tapes were even worse than imagined. Scary shit. And it makes me wonder what other evidence was destroyed. When Gitmo and Abu Ghraib make the news, they’re probably the tip of the iceberg. How did these memos escape the fire? Which memos didn’t? I’d like to see Bush et al tried for something. Whether there’s a conviction or not is beside the point. Showing the world that our leaders have to account for themselves after the fact would restore some of our international credibility, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/30 "2009-03-06T18:35:12Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > \*NEW YORK – The Central Intelligence Agency admitted Monday it has destroyed 92 tapes of harsh interrogation sessions of terror suspects – 90 more than it had previously acknowledged destroying. > > The admission came as U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder pledged against the use of the simulated drowning technique known as water-boarding, which is one of the methods believed to appear on at least some of the tapes.\* > > Gee, it was wrong, they knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway. If they were in the right legally or morally, there would be no need to destroy them. Makes you wonder if the tapes were even worse than imagined. Scary shit. It bothers me too. If I think what i do is legally and morally justifiable, I would want to KEEP the records of it, in case someone came after me (CYA). The last thing I’d do is destroy the very evidence that might protect me. No, you destroy records when you think they will be used to take you down. But that leads to my question. If you are doing something you know is wrong, why would you want records and evidence of it, that you have to worry about? That sounds kind of dumb. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/31 "2009-03-06T18:37:36Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > I’d like to see Bush et al tried for something. Whether there’s a conviction or not is beside the point. Showing the world that our leaders have to account for themselves after the fact would restore some of our international credibility, IMO. It would at least support our wild claims that we are a country of laws, and our equally wild claims that no one is above the law. If the above is not the case, then maybe we should just drop the pretense once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/32 "2009-03-06T22:56:54Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > I remember Tricky Dick, though I was young. Case in point about what I was saying earlier: they went after him while in office. Stuff came out after also. He fought tooth and nail against releasing things when he was in office, and if there was a Republican majority they never would have come out. No doubt he’d mark them double secret when he left. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/33 "2009-03-06T23:45:34Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It bothers me too. If I think what i do is legally and morally justifiable, I would want to KEEP the records of it, in case someone came after me (CYA). The last thing I’d do is destroy the very evidence that might protect me. > No, you destroy records when you think they will be used to take you down. But that leads to my question. If you are doing something you know is wrong, why would you want records and evidence of it, that you have to worry about? That sounds kind of dumb. It might be SOP to record such things, and it might be easier to quietly destroy the tapes afterward than to quietly get the soldiers to break SOP and quietly go along with _overtly_ acting like unsupervised Gestapo. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/34 "2009-03-08T05:44:42Z")
I actually got into a bit of an argument with my dad over this. According to him, there was no direct benefit to the American public from releasing these memos. It didn’t help nor change anything and thus there really wasn’t a reason for them to be released. I argued that there was no requirement that information directly DO anything outside of educate people and that what was in those memos needed to be seen by the world. He refused to change his viewpoint, convinced that since they didn’t benefit anyone, there was no reason to release them. The undertone I got from him, however, was that he believed Obama released them as part of some bigger scheme to further his ‘agenda’, whatever the hell that is. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/35 "2009-03-09T03:00:15Z")
_Former Justice Department lawyer John Yoo refuses to back down on his post-9/11 legal opinions that gave President George W. Bush virtually unchecked power, even though many of the memos have since been repudiated for overreaching and inferior scholarship._ > **[Consortiumnews.com](http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/030709b.html)** > > The Consortium is a website dedicated to independent investigative journalism One nugget from the article: \*Yoo, a tenured law professor at the University of California at Berkeley, took a leave of absence in January to teach foreign relations law at Chapman University in Orange, California. While teaching at Berkeley, he was routinely the subject of protests by students and faculty. \* ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/36 "2009-03-09T13:29:36Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > The undertone I got from him, however, was that he believed Obama released them as part of some bigger scheme to further his ‘agenda’, whatever the hell that is. Obviously Obama has the same “agenda” as any first-term president, which is to win a second term. But the RW, for no rational or even irrational reason I can see, persists in seeing something more sinister in him – either he’s a “puppet” of Pelosi/Reid/Soros/the “left”/something else, or worse he’s a puppetmaster, and in either case a lot further to the left than he’s willing to admit and his plan is to turn America into a socialist state. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/37 "2009-03-09T18:46:22Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > One nugget from the article: > > \*Yoo, a tenured law professor at the University of California at Berkeley, took a leave of absence in January to teach foreign relations law at Chapman University in Orange, California. While teaching at Berkeley, he was routinely the subject of protests by students and faculty. > \* Interesting. I live not far from there, and have never heard this, and was wondering WTF had make Berkeley students such wimp. Back in the good old days his office would have been occupied around the clock. A few years back we were there when there was a street protest during which a car was burned. But it turned out that the protesters had bought the car ahead of time! The place is turning into a '60s revolutionary movement theme park, of you ask me. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/38 "2009-03-09T22:11:56Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Wait a minute. A guy secretly writes memos that gives himself special powers and he keeps these memos secret and then he acts on his new secret powers without telling anyone (outside of the Justice League I mean)? Does this seem insane to anyone else? Saying that it’s insance is punishable by Double Secret Probation. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226/39 "2009-03-09T22:33:03Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > My dad used to say that you may hate the president, but you have to protect the integrity of the office. I’d have to disagree with your dad. I think it’s the _President’s_ job to protect the integrity of the office. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-take-on-obama-releasing-secret-bush-administration-memos/488226.md?page=1)