# Your thoughts on athleticism and race? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904 "2014-05-21T07:12:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/21 "2014-05-21T15:52:55Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Can anyone name a “white” sprinter (I’ll let you define the term as broadly as you like) who has run the 100 meter dash in under 10 seconds? Christophe Lamaitre is the answer, as he was the first in 2010, is he still the only one? It is a striking statistic as it isn’t as if the skill of fast running can be hidden. It is of use in so many sports that an outlier of genuine excellence is going to draw attention. I think the 100m metres is one of those rare events that can be susceptible to a genetic advantage and the west african connection may (note…_may_) explain the demographics of the champion short sprinters. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/22 "2014-05-21T16:00:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Sometimes you have to be honest with yourself and admit that that no how hard you train, no matter how talented in a sport you are, there will always be someone better than you. > > You see this with alot of white kids who get to the point they know that no matter how good they are at basketball, a black kid will always be better. This is why the NBA is 90% black. Yeah, I know it sounds racist but unless your 6’9" its probably the truth. > > As for hockey the 2 top payers on my sons hockey team are black. Bullshit. The NBA is predominately black, yes. A lot of those folks come from inner urban areas. Ever see a hockey rink in a poor area of town? Tennis courts? My guess is no, but you see vacant lot basketball rims everywhere. Pro sports is a way out of an oppressive life in many cases and poverty is a great motivator to work very hard at getting there. Whites are every bit as talented as blacks on the court and there some outliers on both sides like Jordan and James and Bird and Ginobli who are truly gifted at it. The recent large influx of European players alone puts your argument in the toilet. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/23 "2014-05-21T16:04:54Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Can anyone name a “white” sprinter (I’ll let you define the term as broadly as you like) who has run the 100 meter dash in under 10 seconds? Three men of European heritage > **[Patrick Johnson (sprinter)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Johnson_(sprinter))** > > 200 m: 20.35 (Malmö 2006) > Patrick Johnson (born 26 September 1972 in Cairns, Queensland, Australia) is an Australian athlete of Aboriginal and Irish descent. He is the current Oceanian and Australian record holder in the 100 metres with a time of 9.93 seconds, which he achieved in Mito, Japan, on 5 May 2003. With that time he became the first person not of African ancestry to break the 10-second barrier (Frankie Fredericks, a Namibian, had been the first non-West-African in 1991). The time ma... > **[Christophe Lemaitre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Lemaitre)** > > Christophe Lemaitre (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}French pronunciation: \[kʁistɔf ləmɛtʁ\]; born 11 June 1990) is a former French sprinter who specialised in the 100 and 200 metres. In 2010, Lemaitre became the first white athlete to break the 10-second barrier in an officially timed 100 m event. Lemaitre has run a sub-10 se At th... > **[Marian Woronin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Woronin)** > > Marian Jerzy Woronin (born 13 August 1956 in Grodzisk Mazowiecki) is a retired Polish athlete who competed mainly in the 100 metres. He is a four-time European Indoor Champion in the 60 metres. He won nine Polish outdoor titles, and nine indoor titles. > His first major medal came at the 1978 European Athletics Championships, where he anchored the Polish 4×100 metres relay team of Zenon Nowosz, Zenon Licznerski and Leszek Dunecki to the gold medal in the event. He won the bronze in the 100 m at th... Two men of Asian heritage > **[Koji Ito](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koji_Ito)** > > 200 m: 20.16 > Koji Ito (伊東 浩司, Itō Kōji, born 29 January 1970 in Kobe) is a retired Japanese track and field sprinter and Japan's fourth-fastest record holder of 100m sprint with a time of 10.00 seconds. He held the 100 metres Japanese national record between December 1998 and September 2017. > He is a former Asian record holder in the 100 metres and 200 metres, and still holds the indoor record as well as the 4×400 metres relay record. > He is married to former long-distance runner Hiromi Suzuki. > ... > **[Zhang Peimeng](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Peimeng)** > > Zhang Peimeng (Chinese: 張培萌; born March 13, 1987) is a retired Chinese track and field sprinter who specialized in the 200 metres and currently a skeleton racer. His personal best time is 20.47 seconds, achieved in May 2013 in Shanghai. In the 100 metres he has 10.00 seconds, achieved in August 2013 in Moscow. > He represented China at the Summer Olympics twice (2008 and 2012). He was the 100 m gold medallist at the 2009 Asian Athletics Championships and was the silver medallist in that event at... Two Africans not from West Africa > **[Frankie Fredericks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Fredericks)** > > Frank "Frankie" Fredericks (born 2 October 1967) is a former track and field athlete from Namibia. Running in the 100 metres and 200 metres, he won four silver medals at the Olympic Games (two in 1992 and two in 1996), making him Namibia's only Olympic medalist until Christine Mboma's silver medal at the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo. He also won gold medals at the World Championships, World Indoor Championships, All-Africa Games and Commonwealth Games. He is the world indoor record-holder for 200 me... > **[Ngonidzashe Makusha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngonidzashe_Makusha)** > > Ngonidzashe Makusha (born 11 March 1987) is a Zimbabwean sprinter and long jumper. He is the national record holder over 100 m and long jump for Zimbabwe with 9.89 s (+1.3 m/s) and 8.40 m (0.0 m/s), respectively. Both performances were achieved during the 2011 NCAA Division I Championships in Des Moines, Iowa where he completed the 100 m - long jump double gold. Makusha was one of the only four, now five, athletes to win the 100 m - long jump double gold at the NCAA championships. The four In 20... ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/24 "2014-05-21T16:12:26Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Can anyone name a “white” sprinter (I’ll let you define the term as broadly as you like) who has run the 100 meter dash in under 10 seconds? Patrick Johnson (half white Irish/Australian, half indigenous Australian) is one example – he has zero African ancestry. There are numerous others with white ancestry – many or most of the top US and Canadian sprinters have some white ancestry. It might be convenient for the argument to assume they’re all “black”, as if that means something, but many or most of them are “white” too. Jamaica is way-over represented among top sprinters. Is this biological? If it’s cultural, then is it really that outlandish that culture could also be part of the explanation for perceived disparities among other sports? I don’t know why “now” is so special. Only certain sports seem to fit in the “blacks are more athletic” narrative. Boxing, which at one time seemed to be dominated (in America) by black people, now is much more heavily represented by Asian and Latin American fighters, and at the heavyweight class, Eastern Europeans. Is this biological, or cultural? ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/25 "2014-05-21T16:15:58Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Do you believe certain races are better at certain types of physical activity? The [“Race and sports” Wikipedia article outlines some of the basic science](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_sports) but still leaves quite a bit of room for further experimentation and anecdotal experiences. I’m deliberately putting this in IMHO instead of GQ to allow for opinions as well as research data, if you so choose. > > I’ve heard of things like certain genes being required for superior sprinting, Sherpas having adaptations (not sure if genetic) for high-altitude exertion. But then there are those amorphous assumptions like “black people are better at basketball”, which defies convenient testing because basketball is not one straightforward activity but a complex game. Or “Asians are better at ping-pong”, but they do have the most players interested in playing it to begin with. > > So… thoughts? I’ve been struggling with this for a while myself. The whole “dark-skinned people are better at basketball” deal seemed reasonable to me until I realized that African basketball teams don’t do much in the Olympics so there must be more to it than just that. I don’t think this is a question that’s particularly easy to answer but I will submit that in many cases - at least in the U.S. - it seems that a higher percentage of dark-skinned young men than lighter-skinned ones seem to put more stock in excelling at sports (mostly basketball and the U.S. form of football) than they do in excelling at academic pursuits (not to say that they cannot excel at academic pursuits if they choose to put their minds to it…Neil DeGrasse Tyson - one of my and my wife’s favorites - springs readily to mind). To me that seems to be a major reason why the NBA and the NFL each have a higher percentage of dark-skinned athletes in them than they used to. Which brings up the question: “Does that mean that African-American boys aspire to excelling in sports more than they used to?” Good question. Maybe one for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/26 "2014-05-21T16:43:16Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > I’ve been struggling with this for a while myself. The whole “dark-skinned people are better at basketball” deal seemed reasonable to me until I realized that African basketball teams don’t do much in the Olympics so there must be more to it than just that. I don’t think this is a question that’s particularly easy to answer but I will submit that in many cases - at least in the U.S. - it seems that a higher percentage of dark-skinned young men than lighter-skinned ones seem to put more stock in excelling at sports (mostly basketball and the U.S. form of football) than they do in excelling at academic pursuits (not to say that they cannot excel at academic pursuits if they choose to put their minds to it…Neil DeGrasse Tyson - one of my and my wife’s favorites - springs readily to mind). To me that seems to be a major reason why the NBA and the NFL each have a higher percentage of dark-skinned athletes in them than they used to. Which brings up the question: “Does that mean that African-American boys aspire to excelling in sports more than they used to?” Good question. Maybe one for another thread. It’s like any other endeavor: in order to be wildly successful at anything, it takes dedication and massive amounts of hard work. Ask any pro athlete and he’ll tell you that he was consumed by the sport at an early age, spent every spare waking moment working at it, and had the support of his family. The money available in major sports is a huge draw for a kid in a miserable environment, as well. Boxing was (and still is) a traditional way to escape poverty, particularly in Latin America. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/27 "2014-05-21T19:49:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It’s always funny to me because at least in America, hockey, swimming, soccer, tennis, and baseball are predominately white sports. Yet you never hear anyone arguing that whites are natural athletes because of their dominance in these arenas. I read that excellence in certain sports is correlated with where your [centre of gravity](http://www.pratt.duke.edu/news/speediest-athletes-its-all-center-gravity) is. A high centre of gravity makes you a better sprinter, while a low one makes you a better swimmer. So West Africans, who tend to have a high centre of gravity, tend to be better sprinters, while Europeans, who tend to have a low centre of gravity, tend to dominate in swimming. So it’s not that race makes you a natural athlete…but race can make you more likely to be a natural for a specific sport. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/28 "2014-05-21T20:55:24Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Ummm… define “race”? Go to downtown Shanghai and observe 500 persons at random. Go to downtown Warsaw and do the same. Race (of some form) obviously exists, observationally. Meanwhile, define “chair.” ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/29 "2014-05-21T21:16:27Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Do you believe certain races are better at certain types of physical activity? > …snip… > > So… thoughts? There is only one race: the human race. Individuals within that race might excel over others, but that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/30 "2014-05-21T21:19:40Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > There is only one race: the human race. Individuals within that race might excel over others, but that’s all. All I know is that every time I enter the human race, I lose badly. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/31 "2014-05-21T21:29:06Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > I’ve been struggling with this for a while myself. The whole “dark-skinned people are better at basketball” deal seemed reasonable to me until I realized that African basketball teams don’t do much in the Olympics so there must be more to it than just that. I don’t think this is a question that’s particularly easy to answer but I will submit that in many cases - at least in the U.S. - it seems that a higher percentage of dark-skinned young men than lighter-skinned ones seem to put more stock in excelling at sports (mostly basketball and the U.S. form of football) than they do in excelling at academic pursuits (not to say that they cannot excel at academic pursuits if they choose to put their minds to it…Neil DeGrasse Tyson - one of my and my wife’s favorites - springs readily to mind). To me that seems to be a major reason why the NBA and the NFL each have a higher percentage of dark-skinned athletes in them than they used to. Which brings up the question: “Does that mean that African-American boys aspire to excelling in sports more than they used to?” Good question. Maybe one for another thread. One place to start would be to look at studies which try to determine whether or not genes are differently distributed among “races.” (They are; the specific functions and consequences are not.) But if you look at sports, what you should look at is the starting pool and then nurturing advantages and then reasons for drop out. In the US, ask yourself how many kids of all races have opportunity for basketball. Then ask which kids have a nurturing advantage (cultural inclinations; coaching; social helps/roadblocs). Then ask why kids drop out. You can’t make a decision about nurture versus nature until you reasonably evaluate the variables. If almost every kid in the US gets exposed to basketball, and the starting ratio is 4:1 whites to blacks, then if the NBA ratio is 4:1 blacks to whites, you need a nurturing explanation that reasonably explains away why white kids drop out and black kids succeed–not just at the top level, but all the way through. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/32 "2014-05-21T21:29:44Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > There is only one race: the human race. Individuals within that race might excel over others, but that’s all. A useless, politically-correct, bullshit line that betrays what our eyes see, our noses smell, our history demands, and our genes show. People of different ethnic backgrounds look different, smell different, are susceptible to different diseases, and (as this thread explores) perhaps perform differently in different physical activities. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/33 "2014-05-21T21:32:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Race (of some form) obviously exists, observationally. That’s not race. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/34 "2014-05-21T21:33:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Patrick Johnson (half white Irish/Australian, half indigenous Australian) is one example – he has zero African ancestry. > > There are numerous others with white ancestry – many or most of the top US and Canadian sprinters have some white ancestry. It might be convenient for the argument to assume they’re all “black”, as if that means something, but many or most of them are “white” too. Although Patrick Johnson is about half indigenous Australian, the genetics of that group are an early out of africa group, probably before the eurasian split. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/35 "2014-05-21T21:41:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Patrick Johnson (half white Irish/Australian, half indigenous Australian) is one example – he has zero African ancestry. > > There are numerous others with white ancestry – many or most of the top US and Canadian sprinters have some white ancestry. It might be convenient for the argument to assume they’re all “black”, as if that means something, but many or most of them are “white” too. > > Jamaica is way-over represented among top sprinters. Is this biological? If it’s cultural, then is it really that outlandish that culture could also be part of the explanation for perceived disparities among other sports? > > I don’t know why “now” is so special. Only certain sports seem to fit in the “blacks are more athletic” narrative. Boxing, which at one time seemed to be dominated (in America) by black people, now is much more heavily represented by Asian and Latin American fighters, and at the heavyweight class, Eastern Europeans. Is this biological, or cultural? [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier) are the top 90 100 meter dash sprinters. You can decide for yourself if men who are mostly european/asian drop out of running along the way because they think it’s a lame sport, or because they get beaten. You can probably also go to any track meet in the world and decide if you see a pattern. Then you can decide for yourself if that pattern has reasons other than an average innate advantage driving it. There’s no question culture and nurture drives us to what we naturally excel at. The question is whether or not a starting pool is more or less equally exposed to a sport in the first place, and whether those who drop out do so because they cannot compete at higher levels or out of a simple choice to do something else despite the fact that they were the best when they dropped out. I am not inclined to think white kids excelling at basketball or sprinting are dropping out all along the way because they’d rather do something else. Nor am I inclined to think they don’t have better nurturing advantages than do black kids at things they are good at. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/36 "2014-05-21T21:43:13Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > So… thoughts? My thoughts are as follows: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/37 "2014-05-21T21:48:46Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That’s not race. Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by anatomical, cultural, ethnic, genetic, geographical, historical, linguistic, religious, and/or social affiliation. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/38 "2014-05-21T21:50:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > My thoughts are as follows: > > :rolleyes: Watching an NFL or NBA team ought to inspire more intellectual curiosity, unless you’re afraid of what you’ll discover. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/39 "2014-05-21T21:55:27Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Watching an NFL or NBA team ought to inspire more intellectual curiosity, unless you’re afraid of what you’ll discover. It’s weird to see the word “inspire” in this discussion. I’ve read more than my share of threads on this subject, so I have a deep understanding of the scientific and statistical ignorance that comes from the side you appear to be advocating. Bonus points for the arrogance of assuming other people are afraid rather than merely better informed. So what these threads _inspire_ in me is a combination of boredom and disgust. Hence :rolleyes:. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/40 "2014-05-21T22:03:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s weird to see the word “inspire” in this discussion. I’ve read more than my share of threads on this subject, so I have a deep understanding of the scientific and statistical ignorance that comes from the side you appear to be advocating. Bonus points for the arrogance of assuming other people are afraid rather than merely better informed. So what these threads _inspire_ in me is a combination of boredom and disgust. Hence :rolleyes:. The sign of intelligence is to identify patterns and seek understanding. The statistics are undeniable, worldviews notwithstanding. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904.md?page=3)