# Your thoughts on athleticism and race? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904 "2014-05-21T07:12:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/41 "2014-05-21T22:05:10Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The statistics are undeniable The statistics aren’t at issue. The issue is their meaning, and people who say things like “the statistics are undeniable” usually don’t know what the numbers they are touting actually mean because we’ve all seen people abuse statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/42 "2014-05-21T22:13:27Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by anatomical, cultural, ethnic, genetic, geographical, historical, linguistic, religious, and/or social affiliation. Especially based upon reproductively consistent traits. I would exclude the sociological categories from a definition of race – “the poor” aren’t a race – but I would definitely include perpetuating physiological characteristics. The trouble is that the sets are incredibly “fuzzy.” What is the exact boundary that separates southern Chinese from Manchurians? It would be insane to try to write up a checklist of characteristics, or to assign a confidence level. On the other hand, it’s also insane to claim that the two groups aren’t, in fact, observable separate groups. Tell me exactly when a chair stops being a chair and is a sofa. No one can do this, but it’s absurd to say that there are no chairs or sofas. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/43 "2014-05-21T22:15:33Z")
I have a hard time believing there’s any genetic component to talent at a particular sport. It seems extremely unlikely that Americans and Canadians, for example, have a genetic disposition to play one style of football and Europeans have a genetic disposition to play a different style of football. The more likely explanation is that some people have athletic skills due to genetics and they then gravitate to whatever sport happens to be popular in their society. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/44 "2014-05-21T22:26:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It’s always funny to me because at least in America, hockey, swimming, soccer, tennis, and baseball are predominately white sports. Yet you never hear anyone arguing that whites are natural athletes because of their dominance in these arenas. What I think is funny is about a hundred years ago it was scientific fact that Blacks were physically weak and unhealthy and there was a fear we would die out. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/45 "2014-05-21T22:29:24Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Although Patrick Johnson is about half indigenous Australian, the genetics of that group are an early out of africa group, probably before the eurasian split. Whether this is true or not, considering the enormous genetic diversity of the African continent (and the pinpointing of “West Africa” as the haven for sprinting by the pro-“blacks-are-faster” crowd), this tells us nothing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/46 "2014-05-21T22:51:21Z")
One only has to look at [the domination of basketball by Jewish players](http://www.chutzpahmag.com/archives/1007) to conclude that athleticism has a racial component. Nearly all the major players are Jews. There clearly must be some combination of mental or physical traits unique to the Hebrew race that explains their particular skill on the basketball court. It’s difficult to imagine a Negro, a Chinaman, or a Hindoo displaying similar prowess. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/47 "2014-05-21T23:32:04Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > . . . or a Hindoo . . . Other than to note your amusing archaicisms, one can convert to Hinduism. Anyone could. We could put together the best basketball squad on earth – the Dream Team 2 – and have them all convert to that religion. It would certainly create an impressive correlation between religion and game-playing skill! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/48 "2014-05-22T00:01:13Z")
Different sports favor [different body types.](http://youtu.be/8COaMKbNrX0?t=8m54s) Insofar as different races are more likely to have these body types I’d expect them to be over represented at the top levels. > [@Batistuta](#): > > Is there a correlation between being black or being 6’9"? I dunno, but white dudes tend to have those t-rex arms. > [@](#): > > I think the basketball world is actually a good argument against racialist (is there a better word?) theories. Sure, most of the players seem to be African Americans, but look at some of the white Europeans in the league. Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Sabonis, Goran Dragic… they are all as good as the best players in the NBA. It seems to me that basketball just doesn’t appeal to white Americans as much as it does to white Europeans or to African Americans. Given enough training and opportunities, a white player can be just as good as a black one, the question we should ask is why white Americans are not opting for that career path. Where are the white versions of Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, David Robinson, Vince Carter, Dr. J, Rodman, etc.? Has there ever been a white point guard with half as much explosiveness as Westbrook or Rose? There’s plenty of white American interest in basketball. The NBA is supported by mostly middle class white people. Plenty of white players in college too. Still, white players aren’t as good as black players. And the best white players tend to fall into two categories: lumbering but skilled big men (Sabonis, Dirk, Gasol brothers, McHale, Cowens, Walton, and Bird to a certain extent since he could play PF) and point guards who have elite court vision, shooting and decision making (Stockton, Nash). And those two could barely dunk. Blake Griffin could be an exception, except he’s half black. Good white perimeter players with athleticism even close to their black contemporaries…Manu Ginobli? And maybe Brent Barry? That’s already a big drop off. Heh, it’s even reflected in promotional materials. Jerry West in the NBA logo: dribbling. Jordan logo: dunking from the free throw line. One can add in Chinese people to the list of the way under represented, since bball is **huge** there, they love the NBA, yet it hasn’t produced much in the way of stars. Yao Ming was huge and skilled but plodding, and unfortunately super injury prone. Linsanity was a thing for a couple weeks, but he’s a middling role player (and yeah, he’s American anyway). All the other Asian players have been scrubs. Retired second rate NBA players like Stephon Marbury and Bonzi Wells go to the Chinese league and feast like kings. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/49 "2014-05-22T00:01:34Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > One only has to look at [the domination of basketball by Jewish players](http://www.chutzpahmag.com/archives/1007) to conclude that athleticism has a racial component. Nearly all the major players are Jews. There clearly must be some combination of mental or physical traits unique to the Hebrew race that explains their particular skill on the basketball court. It’s difficult to imagine a Negro, a Chinaman, or a Hindoo displaying similar prowess. The Jewish basketball player example gets old and has very limited utility today. How do you think the Jewish basketball greats of yesteryear would perform against any accomplished team, even college teams made up of other groups today? My guess is that they would be destroyed before we even started talking about the worst NCAA Division 1 team let alone any better ones. It is quite possible to have domination in a given sport if only certain groups play it or if others are intentionally excluded from it (see blacks in many sports prior to the 1960’s). However, basketball is open to everyone today and you can see for yourself what the results are. Blacks make up about 13% of the U.S. population yet almost 80% of the NBA today. Basketball is popular with inner city blacks but it is also hugely popular in the Midwest with everyone and most American kids play it some. Even lily white high schools tend to have basketball teams yet the numbers get population numbers get vastly skewed at the college level and even more at the professional level. I don’t know why that is but, in this case, a declaration of ‘nurture’ over ‘nature’ requires just as good an explanation as the reverse and I haven’t heard one yet. Many people don’t realize it but a simplistic appeal to the ‘nurture’ argument is at least as insulting to everyone as the reverse. Do you honestly think that the reason that all the millions of white athletes cannot break into the top 10 in virtually any running sport is because they simply aren’t trying enough? That doesn’t apply to the ones that I know and doesn’t fit into the white sports subculture either. Many will spend every bit of time, money and energy they have to excel at a given sport if they can excel at it. It is almost pathological in many cases. That works great for a talented athlete in sports like swimming, baseball and tennis but not so much in basketball. It doesn’t work at all at the top levels of any pure running sport. Why do you think that is? Are all those millions of white runners just doing something fundamentally wrong that they could fix? Are those Midwestern kids who live for college basketball just oblivious to what the game is really all about so that more of them could make it into the NBA? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/50 "2014-05-22T00:34:09Z")
I’m glad these discussions have moved from GD to IMHO so that a new cadre of race realists can tell us how scientifically illiterate they are. Spread those nets, guys. Spread those nets! ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/51 "2014-05-22T01:24:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m glad these discussions have moved from GD to IMHO so that a new cadre of race realists can tell us how scientifically illiterate they are. Spread those nets, guys. Spread those nets! I am not a race realist. I don’t even believe in classical races. I am a ‘populationist’ however. It is just as illogical to say that there are no large and consistently repeatable differences in some populations on some sports performance measures as it is to say that all people of fictional race X must exhibit such a trait. That is the part that you and others are missing. In the case of running performance, the results show that some black populations really are faster at any short to mid distance running than anyone from any other population. That doesn’t mean that all people with black skin are the same. It does mean that a very few populations of people that we describe as black come from populations that have some characteristic that allows them to consistently excel at a very specialized sport. Whatever those traits are do not even give generalized exceptional running skills. For marathon running, the evidence is good that a few populations from Kenya and Ethiopia can produce a few individuals that can consistently beat everyone else in the world. Sprinting ability is more pronounced among different populations as is ultra-long distance running. None of that is racism even in the positive sense (I am a white dud that wishes I could run that fast but it isn’t to ever be). It is just a recognition that certain human populations can produce exceptional traits that are not matchable by any other population particularly at the extreme ends of the curve. We already know that it happens in many different forms. The Sherpa people, as previously mentioned, have the largest known, recent mutation that lets them survive and thrive at high altitudes in the Himalayas. Unassisted high altitude mountain climbing isn’t an Olympic sport but it could be in theory. If it was, they would have an extreme advantage because they are adapted for it and all sports are somewhat arbitrary in the things that they test for. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/52 "2014-05-22T01:32:19Z")
If you don’t agree with anything I just posted, don’t be lazy and fall back on the general, blanket statement nurture argument as a default truism because it isn’t. That is what most people tend to do and there is no scientific or logical reason for that way of thinking. Nurture arguments require just as detailed an explanation as any other argument including genetic or biological ones. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/53 "2014-05-22T01:55:37Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am not a race realist. I don’t even believe in classical races. I am a ‘populationist’ however. It is just as illogical to say that there are no large and consistently repeatable differences in some populations on some sports performance measures as it is to say that all people of fictional race X must exhibit such a trait. That is the part that you and others are missing. . . . Agreed. I find it very discomforting that even a mild espousal of “populationist” reasoning can be taken as a sign of racism, or “race realism” (a strange term.) The overall fact is that reproductively isolated groups of people have evolved heritable physical characteristics…on the average. There are obviously millions of exceptions: there are pale Africans and blond Chinese and short Zulus. But the broad categories of some ethnic physical characteristics are real. I hate the thought that saying even that much might seem to give support to certain creepy individuals who have posted unconscionable tripe on the SDMB. But to over-correct and to deny the reality of physical characteristics in groups is equally bad science. We must all get along. We don’t all look the same. The former does not depend on the latter…thank goodness! As we used to say, back in the day, Vive la difference! ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/54 "2014-05-22T04:25:04Z")
If you look at the world strongman competitions most of the top ones there have been from Iceland. Does eating whale meat make one stronger? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/55 "2014-05-22T06:12:29Z")
It comes from inhaling all that volcanic dust! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/56 "2014-05-22T06:29:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > In the case of running performance, the results show that some black populations really are faster at any short to mid distance running than anyone from any other population. That doesn’t mean that all people with black skin are the same. It does mean that a very few populations of people that we describe as black come from populations that have some characteristic that allows them to consistently excel at a very specialized sport. Whatever those traits are do not even give generalized exceptional running skills. For marathon running, the evidence is good that a few populations from Kenya and Ethiopia can produce a few individuals that can consistently beat everyone else in the world. Sprinting ability is more pronounced among different populations as is ultra-long distance running. > [@Trinopus](#): > > I find it very discomforting that even a mild espousal of “populationist” reasoning can be taken as a sign of racism, or “race realism” (a strange term.) The overall fact is that reproductively isolated groups of people have evolved heritable physical characteristics…on the average. There are obviously millions of exceptions: there are pale Africans and blond Chinese and short Zulus. But the broad categories of some ethnic physical characteristics are real. There is a world of difference between limited claims about specific populations and vague horse crap like “black people are better at sports because genes.” ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/57 "2014-05-22T06:36:25Z")
Some people are incredibly athletic. Most of them belong to the human race. Except Otis Sistrunk. He went to the University of Mars. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/58 "2014-05-22T07:24:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There is a world of difference between limited claims about specific populations and vague horse crap like “black people are better at sports because genes.” Agreed! Definitely! I want to support some very mild and limited ideas of the former nature, while distancing myself energetically from the latter. I’m just hoping there’s a little squeeze room in the middle for a “weak racial correlative hypothesis,” without getting branded for giving support to the extreme variety. Also, I have no “prescriptionist” position at all. Even if everything were proven, I say, so what? What are we supposed to do about it? Life isn’t fair. That’s one of the first things you learn in athletic competition: there’s always someone else faster and stronger. (It’s also one of the first things you learn in the superhero business…) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/59 "2014-05-22T14:48:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Agreed! Definitely! I want to support some very mild and limited ideas of the former nature, while distancing myself energetically from the latter. I’m just hoping there’s a little squeeze room in the middle for a “weak racial correlative hypothesis,” without getting branded for giving support to the extreme variety. Then you have to be careful to stick to the facts and avoid the kind of vague, science-poor nonsense these people spout regarding sports and a lot of other fields. (I’m being vague in order to avoid a hijack.) > [@](#): > > Even if everything were proven, I say, so what? What are we supposed to do about it? Life isn’t fair. That’s one of the first things you learn in athletic competition: there’s always someone else faster and stronger. You know how these things go. Some people would just use it to dismiss the achievements of other people, some would incorporate it into other stereotypes about their own superiority, and the list goes on. It’d mostly be use to belittle and dismiss people of other races. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904/60 "2014-05-22T15:46:58Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > If you look at the world strongman competitions most of the top ones there have been from Iceland. > > Does eating whale meat make one stronger? Given that events which call for a lot of raw upper-body strength (wrestling, weight lifting, heavyweight boxing) tend to be dominated by Slavic and Central Asian ethnicities, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if there was a genetic factor there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-athleticism-and-race/688904.md?page=4)