# Your thoughts on this traffic citation **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226 "2010-08-24T00:12:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/1 "2010-08-24T00:12:47Z")
Observe this street: [Street](http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.260517,-83.739499&spn=0.000967,0.002411&z=19&layer=c&cbll=42.260514,-83.739613&panoid=sp-YQKHMRJQnsBGmAXHXCg&cbp=12,246.67,,0,12.81) Now I’m driving down the road towards the T-intersection, intending to make a left turn. The left turn lane has a green arrow, the right one is red and there are cars backed up in the right lane about to the point of where the camera is in the photo. So of course, I move into the turn lane and keep driving, not excessively speeding (as far as I recall), but at a decent clip to try and make the light. When I reach the level of the driveway on the left, a guy in a minivan pops out of the right lane with little space between us. I slam on the brakes, swerve slightly to the left, but still hit the car side (it was raining too). Low speed collision, nobody is even slightly hurt, only minor damage. So we wait for a cop to show up while I’m thinking obviously this guy is the one responsible here. But when the cop takes a statement from each of us, she concludes that I was “improperly passing on the left” and cites me. Thoughts? PS: To head off the immediate replies of “no legal advice”, that is not my intention. I’ve already decided what action I’m taking and how I feel about the situation. I’m just looking for some people’s subjective takes on what they think, which is perfectly fine, per my understanding of the registration agreement. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/2 "2010-08-24T00:34:23Z")
To me, it looks like the “left-turn lane” doesn’t even start until after that driveway. Before that, it’s still a center lane. And I don’t think it’s legal to use the center lane for passing. ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/3 "2010-08-24T00:36:26Z")
To clarify- you got into the left turning lane way back, before the break in the line where you’re supposed to get into it, and that caused an accident? Yep, that’ll do it. And that’s one of my biggest pet peeves while driving- people that use the center lane as their own special traffic-free road. It’s a turning lane, for both sides, until you get up to the break at the light. ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/4 "2010-08-24T00:56:28Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > To me, it looks like the “left-turn lane” doesn’t even start until after that driveway. Before that, it’s still a center lane. And I don’t think it’s legal to use the center lane for passing. I did look up the relevant pieces of legislature and IMO it is far from cut and dried whether my actions were legal or not, even if you throw out the fact that I was preparing for a left turn. > [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > To clarify- you got into the left turning lane way back, before the break in the line where you’re supposed to get into it, and that caused an accident? Yep, that’ll do it. And that’s one of my biggest pet peeves while driving- people that use the center lane as their own special traffic-free road. It’s a turning lane, for both sides, until you get up to the break at the light. To clarify again, what caused the accident was somebody changing lanes without doing a safety check, which arguably the law is quite clear about. But yeah, as opposed to arguing my guilt, I guess I wanted this discussion to grow along lines of what you call your pet peeve. Because my understanding is that 95% of drivers would go ahead and move into the turn lane some distance before the break in order to get to the light rather than sit in traffic for multiple light cycles while the lane stays open. And this just seems like common sense. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/5 "2010-08-24T00:59:29Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > To clarify again, what caused the accident was somebody changing lanes without doing a safety check, which arguably the law is quite clear about. I’m actually on your side here- I wouldn’t have thought such a thing would be illegal. Maybe it is, but I honestly wouldn’t have figured it to be. That said, to the quoted bit, that’s still your fault. Even if he randomly jumped out, you’re coming up on him and it’s your job to be going a speed to take into account these things. Sort of the “if you rear end someone, it’s always your fault” sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/6 "2010-08-24T01:03:41Z")
It’s pretty cut and dried here- you just don’t get into the center lane until you’re ready to turn. It’s that clear. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/7 "2010-08-24T01:05:49Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > So we wait for a cop to show up while I’m thinking obviously this guy is the one responsible here. But when the cop takes a statement from each of us, she concludes that I was “improperly passing on the left” and cites me. Thoughts? The citation has an inappropriate name, but you crossed a solid yellow line, which is a big no-no. You were at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/8 "2010-08-24T01:10:11Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The citation has an inappropriate name, but you crossed a solid yellow line, which is a big no-no. You were at fault. Yup, right here. The van probably should have looked for someone pulling that kind of move, but I don’t blame the driver for not thinking someone would be doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/9 "2010-08-24T01:13:37Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > It’s pretty cut and dried here- you just don’t get into the center lane until you’re ready to turn. It’s that clear. I wasn’t just BSing when I said it wasn’t: [Cite](http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28dmjslm45xvwvur45kpdv3ejn%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-257-638) > [@](#): > > (1) A vehicle shall not be driven to the left side of the center of a 2-lane highway or in the center lane of a 3-lane highway in overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction unless the left side or center lane is clearly visible and is free of oncoming traffic for a sufficient distance ahead to permit the overtaking and passing to be completely made without interfering with the safe operation of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction or the vehicle overtaken. E: This is the passage I was cited for ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/10 "2010-08-24T01:15:46Z")
But if that particular center lane was for passing, wouldn’t the yellow line have been broken, not solid? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/11 "2010-08-24T01:18:00Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > But if that particular center lane was for passing, wouldn’t the yellow line have been broken, not solid? Yup. See where the yellow line disappears in the picture? That’s where it’s OK to drive through/over/pass. Not at the solid line. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/12 "2010-08-24T01:23:16Z")
I saw something written by the Michigan police a few years ago that explicitly said that the maneuver you pulled was not legal. You are allowed to move into the center lane early to prepare for a left-hand turn only if the traffic is backed up in the center lane itself. That doesn’t stop people (including me, I admit) from pulling out of the main backed up traffic lanes early and cause close calls (and at least one collision apparently) with folks trying to pull out of driveways close to the light in between stopped cars. I absolutely refuse to make turns out of driveways where I can’t see the traffic in all lanes, which has made some fellow drivers rather upset, but I always err on the side of caution. ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/13 "2010-08-24T01:24:03Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The citation has an inappropriate name, but you crossed a solid yellow line, which is a big no-no. You were at fault. Except people cross the line all the time when they need to turn. So I’m hesitant to declare a solid yellow line as an absolute indicator of a law I was breaking. Honestly (because I want this be a more abstracted discussion), you guys have never moved into the turn lane before the break because through traffic was stalled? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/14 "2010-08-24T01:31:29Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > > > The citation has an inappropriate name, but you crossed a solid yellow line, which is a big no-no. You were at fault. > > Except people cross the line all the time when they need to turn. So I’m hesitant to declare a solid yellow line as an absolute indicator of a law I was breaking. > > Honestly (because I want this be a more abstracted discussion), you guys have never moved into the turn lane before the break because through traffic was stalled? I’ve done it and I always figured it was illegal, and it is in WA state (it’s written pretty clearly). But reading that Michigan law seems pretty ambiguous. Also, regarding posters that say crossing a solid yellow line is illegal: that’s how you enter the 2 way turn lane, if it was illegal then you wouldn’t have too many people using that lane to turn into driveways and side streets. Basically you would have 1/3 of the road that is illegal for any vehicle to enter. That makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/15 "2010-08-24T01:31:29Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > Honestly (because I want this be a more abstracted discussion), you guys have never moved into the turn lane before the break because through traffic was stalled? Actually, no, I don’t. I see people doing it all the time, and I see people getting stopped for doing it. It’s illegal and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/16 "2010-08-24T01:32:48Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > Except people cross the line all the time when they need to turn. So I’m hesitant to declare a solid yellow line as an absolute indicator of a law I was breaking. [http://www.michigan.gov/documents/SOS\_WEDMK\_7\_Signs\_Pavement\_Markings\_and\_Signals\_158269\_7.pdf](http://www.michigan.gov/documents/SOS_WEDMK_7_Signs_Pavement_Markings_and_Signals_158269_7.pdf) Here’s what the State of Michigan says (bolding and italicizing mine): “ **Center lane, left-turn-only:** Many roads have a leftturn only lane to help traffic flow more smoothly. Each outside edge of this lane is marked with a solid yellow line with broken yellow lines on the inside edges. Left turns must be made from within this lane, and may be made from either direction. _ **Using this lane to pass other vehicles or as a merge lane is both dangerous and illegal** _.” Sorry dude, you lose. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/17 "2010-08-24T01:36:14Z")
If I understand this situation, the other car involved was in the right lane and then as soon as he reached the end of the yellow line (painted on the road to his left) he pulled into the left lane in order to reach the intersection. Until that lane became defined as a left turn lane, it was a centre lane intended for left hand turns only. So he actually did everything right, according to the painted lines, is that right? Except that you were already in the “left lane” because you were driving down the centre between the yellows as you would a regular lane, in order to get to the light. IMHO he should have checked to see if a vehicle was in that lane (as you should no matter when you change lanes), _but_ you should not have been driving down that lane. If you were in the centre lane before the end of the yellows, my expectation would be that you would have turned left into the driveway before the end of the yellows, but not continue to the light. That was the intent of the road and may have been the expectation of the other driver. So I think you were both somewhat at fault, but you were definitely wrong in being where you were and using that lane like a normal one. ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/18 "2010-08-24T01:47:16Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > > [@iophobon](#): > > > > Except people cross the line all the time when they need to turn. So I’m hesitant to declare a solid yellow line as an absolute indicator of a law I was breaking. > > [http://www.michigan.gov/documents/SOS\_WEDMK\_7\_Signs\_Pavement\_Markings\_and\_Signals\_158269\_7.pdf](http://www.michigan.gov/documents/SOS_WEDMK_7_Signs_Pavement_Markings_and_Signals_158269_7.pdf) > > Here’s what the State of Michigan says (bolding and italicizing mine): > > “ **Center lane, left-turn-only:** Many roads have a leftturn only lane to help traffic flow more smoothly. Each outside edge of this lane is marked with a solid yellow line with broken yellow lines on the inside edges. Left turns must be made from within this lane, and may be made from either direction. _ **Using this lane to pass other vehicles or as a merge lane is both dangerous and illegal** _.” > > Sorry dude, you lose. Yep, that is pretty clear. Now if I only could find an actual statement in the traffic law that backs that up. Edit: Also from [michigan.gov](http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1586_27094-73839--,00.html), the incredibly helpful: > [@](#): > > Question: How far can you drive in a center turn lane? > > Answer: That depends. When preparing for a left turn a driver can travel a “reasonable” distance in the center turn lane. > > It is unlawful to use the center left turn lane for a right turn or as a merge lane when entering the roadway. One thing I’ve been holding back is that that Street View photo must have been taken quite a while ago because the lines look nothing like that now. In fact, it took me quite a while to figure out the road was configured as it is, and not two lanes approaching the light. My first belief was not that the guy was just waiting for a break to actually move into the turn lane, but was actually changing his mind at the last minute to turn left and not right. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/19 "2010-08-24T03:37:53Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > One thing I’ve been holding back is that that Street View photo must have been taken quite a while ago because the lines look nothing like that now. In fact, it took me quite a while to figure out the road was configured as it is, and not two lanes approaching the light. My first belief was not that the guy was just waiting for a break to actually move into the turn lane, but was actually changing his mind at the last minute to turn left and not right. Ah, so not only were you certain that such a move was legal when you did it given what we now know to be the configuration of the roadway, you couldn’t even see the lines in the first place so it shouldn’t be illegal… this makes a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Amblydoper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@Amblydoper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amblydoper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/20 "2010-08-24T04:03:00Z")
A defensive driver should realize that any one of those cars stopped in the right lane could, at any time, change lanes. Where exactly were your eyes focused before the accident? They should have been looking at all the cars that could cut you off, and not on the green light that just might change colors. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226.md?page=2)