# Your thoughts on this traffic citation **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226 "2010-08-24T00:12:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/21 "2010-08-24T04:07:48Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > It’s pretty cut and dried here- you just don’t get into the center lane until you’re ready to turn. It’s that clear. This. If you weren’t within the designated left turn lane lines then it is 100% your fault. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/22 "2010-08-24T04:35:10Z")
Shoulda just told the cop you intended to turn into that left driveway. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/23 "2010-08-24T04:36:43Z")
To be honest I would do the same thing you did, except I Know I am in the illegal lane and drive pretty slow in case somone has been perfectly legal and is waiting for the break to move over. I’ve had people see me coming and move right into my path many times, never hit one of them so far. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/24 "2010-08-24T04:40:43Z")
People cross solid lines all the time, to the left and right, but a solid line indicates that you can’t legally drive there, even though you physically can. I’m fairly sure that most drivers don’t even know what a solid line indicates. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/25 "2010-08-24T04:59:37Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > But when the cop takes a statement from each of us, she concludes that I was “improperly passing on the left” and cites me. Thoughts? Cop is right. You were wrong. Center lane is for left turns, not for covering ground. You shouldn’t even think of being in center lane to turn left at light until you are past driveway on left. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/26 "2010-08-24T13:34:17Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > Except people cross the line all the time when they need to turn. So I’m hesitant to declare a solid yellow line as an absolute indicator of a law I was breaking. > > Honestly (because I want this be a more abstracted discussion), you guys have never moved into the turn lane before the break because through traffic was stalled? People also do “rolling stops” through stop signs all the time. I’ve done it when there was no traffic coming from either direction, and an unmarked police car just happened to be turning onto the street when I made the turn. When the cop pulled me over and asked if I know why he pulled me over, I said, “Yeah, failing to come to a complete stop.” Sorry dude, I don’t see how you can get out of this. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/27 "2010-08-24T13:45:47Z")
I do the same thing you did all the time. I do it very slowly, with plenty of allowance for people pulling out in front of me, because I know it’s my fault if there’s a collision. Sorry; live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/28 "2010-08-24T14:14:50Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > > > [http://www.michigan.gov/documents/SOS\_WEDMK\_7\_Signs\_Pavement\_Markings\_and\_Signals\_158269\_7.pdf](http://www.michigan.gov/documents/SOS_WEDMK_7_Signs_Pavement_Markings_and_Signals_158269_7.pdf) > > > > Here’s what the State of Michigan says (bolding and italicizing mine): > > > > “ **Center lane, left-turn-only:** Many roads have a leftturn only lane to help traffic flow more smoothly. Each outside edge of this lane is marked with a solid yellow line with broken yellow lines on the inside edges. Left turns must be made from within this lane, and may be made from either direction. _ **Using this lane to pass other vehicles or as a merge lane is both dangerous and illegal** _.” > > > > Sorry dude, you lose. > > Yep, that is pretty clear. Now if I only could find an actual statement in the traffic law that backs that up. > > Edit: Also from [michigan.gov](http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1586_27094-73839--,00.html), the incredibly helpful: > > > [@](#): > > > > Question: How far can you drive in a center turn lane? > > > > Answer: That depends. When preparing for a left turn a driver can travel a “reasonable” distance in the center turn lane. > > > > It is unlawful to use the center left turn lane for a right turn or as a merge lane when entering the roadway. > > One thing I’ve been holding back is that that Street View photo must have been taken quite a while ago because the lines look nothing like that now. In fact, it took me quite a while to figure out the road was configured as it is, and not two lanes approaching the light. My first belief was not that the guy was just waiting for a break to actually move into the turn lane, but was actually changing his mind at the last minute to turn left and not right. Both of these cites come as a complete surprise to me. When I took state sponsored driver’s education (through my local high school, for cripe’s sake) I was specifically taught to use the center turning lane as a merge lane (as in, if making a left turn across a roadway that included a center turn lane in heavy traffic, it was OK to pull into the center turning lane (orienting your car in the direction of the traffic you wished to merge into), waiting for an opening, and then completing the turn. We actually performed the maneuver several times to make sure we could all complete it. Oh, and I’ve lived in Michigan all my life. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/29 "2010-08-24T16:04:59Z")
California’s vehicle code is [quite specific](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/traffic_lanes.htm#cltl) in saying that the center turn lane may be used as a merge lane (the blue car _D_ in the figure): > [@](#): > > When turning left from a side street or driveway, signal and wait until it is safe. Then you may drive into the center left turn lane. Enter traffic only when it is safe. In practice, that’s rarely done (IME); I suspect most people don’t even realize it’s legal. Edit: That link is to the Driver Handbook, intended to be a plain-language summary of the Vehicle Code. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/30 "2010-08-24T16:31:26Z")
Wow, I use the center lane to merge all the time. I hope it’s legal here. That seems safer than merging into moving traffic. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/31 "2010-08-24T18:12:37Z")
Now that we’ve determined that the OP was certainly at fault here, I’m wondering why the heck he was turning left in the first place. He would have to turn right to get to [Krazy Jim’s Blimpy Burgers.](http://maps.google.com/maps/place?rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=Blimpy+Burger+Krazy+Jim's,+Ann+Arbor,+MI&fb=1&gl=us&hq=Blimpy+Burger+Krazy+Jim's,&hnear=Ann+Arbor,+MI&cid=16914562332279890554) Mmmmm… So good… ---
**Author:** ![Yarster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/7c8e57/32.png) [@Yarster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/32 "2010-08-24T18:58:47Z")
I had a somewhat similar accident occur in reverse where there were two lanes in each direction on a street and I was parked. The light turned red, and traffic started to back up, but only in the left lane. My parallel parked space was about 200 feet back, but since traffic wasn’t moving, and the right lane was clear, I figured it was safe to pull out. So I slowly pull out, and as I’m about 45 degrees out, a guy in the left lane decides he suddenly wants to be in the right lane, and jumps out, at which point I slam on my brakes. He barely clips the edge of my fender against the right side of his car. But he tries to speed past to get through the gap as I slammed on my brakes. This does near zero damage to my car, but ultimately scratches his car from about the front right side to most of the way down the right door. My thinking is, bummer, but he did it to himself by speeding past my (then stationary) car and since my car had only a tiny scratch, I was just going to call it a day. The other guy, however, had paint damage and wanted my insurance information, which I thought might be a scam. I gave it to him, but let my carrier know what happened, and provided pictures of my (non) damage. Surprisingly, the insurance companies settled, and said it was “both our faults”. Like you, I thought I was totally innocent and not at fault. No cops were involved for ours. I’m curious why you all felt you had to wait for the cops… ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/33 "2010-08-26T01:40:19Z")
Well, there’s an interesting new twist now. I was able to purchase a copy of the police report and it seems that what the officer understood was not the scenario we’ve been discussing. The other guy’s statement says he was already in the turn lane and was turning into the driveway. Which implies I was going the wrong way down the road. Because there was some debris in the opposing direction lane, that was apparently the version of the story she chose to believe. That said, this [document](http://troymi.gov/TrafficEngineering/centerlane.pdf) pretty conclusively sinks my position on early use of the center lane. > [@Amblydoper](#): > > A defensive driver should realize that any one of those cars stopped in the right lane could, at any time, change lanes. Where exactly were your eyes focused before the accident? They should have been looking at all the cars that could cut you off, and not on the green light that just might change colors. I don’t stare at specific things, in order to cultivate a general sense of awareness of my surroundings. And there’s definitely a limit to the whole “a defensive driver wouldn’t have had an accident”. Unless you’re willing to drive at 5mph when passing stopped cars, there’s always a chance some moron will put you in a helpless position of hitting him. I certainly wasn’t being aggressive to the point of begging for an accident (besides maybe the early entry deal), as I’m fairly confident if the road was dry I would have stopped in time. > [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Now that we’ve determined that the OP was certainly at fault here, I’m wondering why the heck he was turning left in the first place. He would have to turn right to get to Krazy Jim’s Blimpy Burgers. At the risk of further crucifixion, I will admit I still have yet to visit Blimpy Burger in spite of the good things I’ve heard. ---
**Author:** ![dzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/34 "2010-08-26T02:38:00Z")
I didn’t read most of the posts so I hope this isn’t repetitive. First, what exactly was the ticket for. Since you said you were able to look up the statute, I assume that the ticket has a description of the violation plus the citation to the statute. At this point I’ll assume it is something like passing in a no passing zone and not something vague and non-specific like careless driving. If the other car entered your lane at about the place where the right and center lanes become instead the right and left hand turn lanes, then AT THAT POINT, I think you were entitled to be in that lane. There might really be 2 separate issues here. One would be whether or not you are guilty of a moving violation for having traveled in the center lane for the purpose of passing (sort of like driving on the shoulder to pass when you are coming up to your exit). In that case, the other issue would be whether or not the other driver was careless in as much as he turned into the left hand turn lane without first checking for traffic. The 2 issues do not necessarily have anything to do with one another. For example, let’s say that you had pulled into the left turn lane right before the other car - and at a point where it was clearly a left turn lane and not a center lane. In that case, you would not have been guilty of improper passing, but the accident still would have happened. If I’m correct, then there are 2 separate legal issues too. First, are you guilty of a moving violation. Second, are you responsible for the accident? This won’t matter as far as the ticket goes (assuming again that it was for improper passing), but it could matter a great deal when the time comes for the insurance companies to determine fault. Normally, getting a ticket in connection with an accident is the kiss of death in terms of getting the blame. And to be honest, that will probably end up being true even if you can show that the accident would have happened anyway. But there is a chance that you win the adjuster/agent/whomever over if you can clearly show that the accident resulted from the other guy’s negligence. That might save you some real money down the road depending on how insurance companies in your state handle surcharges for accidents. The only other thing to consider is where on his vehicle did you hit him? You will need to research this, but I think a general rule of thumb is that if you hit him in the front half of his car, then he basically drove into you and therefore is more at fault than you are. If you hit him in the back half, then it would be the reverse. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/35 "2010-08-26T14:17:26Z")
Seems to me that while your intended manuvere would be illegal (to pass on the left in the turning lane) you never completed that manuvere. Unfortuantely you told the cop that you inteded to continue on to the intersection. If you intented to (or even told the cop you intended to) turn into that parking lot on the left I think you would have been fully in the right citation wise. And the minivan would be totally in the wrong. “I came up behind a line of cars at the light. I wanted to turn left into that parking lot so I got into the turn lane and proceeded forward. Before I got to the point where I would turn left into the lot the minivan pulled out of the right lane causing the collision.” So I think that even though you were making an illegal manuvere that doesn’t necessarily absolve the minivan from being at fault. How did he know where you intended to turn? He didn’t. He was in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/36 "2010-08-26T14:40:29Z")
Sounds like you violated local traffic laws, but (IANA lawyer), check out the local law regarding the validity of a citation written by someone who didn’t witness the incident. Since it’s probably a moving violation that may affect your insurance rate, it could be worth consulting a strip mall lawyer who specializes in that kind of thing. In the future, you can avoid this problem. Don’t do anything that violates any traffic law, even if you are inconvenienced, or inconveniencing others. I don’t do that, but if I got caught, I’d just pay the fine and not complain. You know, don’t do the crime if… ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/37 "2010-08-26T14:41:57Z")
There may be a good argument for comparative fault on the part of the other driver on the issue of civil liability. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/38 "2010-08-26T15:49:22Z")
All I know is that that intersection is in bad need of a redesign (or even a widening). Sounds like a perfect breeding ground for wrecks like this. ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/39 "2010-08-26T19:05:07Z")
I don’t know if this holds in your city, but in Phoenix, I was told that the person turning left is always at fault. Fair or not. I posed some ridiculous hypothetical of someone running a red light against my green arrow and the traffic school guy said even then, the left-turn person would be at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226/40 "2010-08-26T19:28:54Z")
> [@Mauvaise](#): > > I don’t know if this holds in your city, but in Phoenix, I was told that the person turning left is always at fault. Fair or not. I posed some ridiculous hypothetical of someone running a red light against my green arrow and the traffic school guy said even then, the left-turn person would be at fault. That’s probably more about being able to meet the burden of proof at trial than the laws of liability. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-thoughts-on-this-traffic-citation/551226.md?page=3)