# Your views on self-defense, killing, and weapons **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 1, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737 "2015-08-01T17:16:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/21 "2015-08-02T11:47:26Z")
I also found it easy to click the three “pro-gun” “self-defence” boxes, even though I ridicule the gun nuts and Zimmerman defenders in the Pit threads. The choice of poll questions may demonstrate again that “the two sides” just don’t understand each other. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/22 "2015-08-02T13:30:44Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I think your questions show that you fundamentally don’t understand the positions being put forward by gun control advocates. > [@septimus](#): > > I also found it easy to click the three “pro-gun” “self-defence” boxes, even though I ridicule the gun nuts and Zimmerman defenders in the Pit threads. > > The choice of poll questions may demonstrate again that “the two sides” just don’t understand each other. OK, I’m open to suggestions: what general principles are a better test of the divide? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/23 "2015-08-02T13:50:41Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I also found it easy to click the three “pro-gun” “self-defence” boxes, even though I ridicule the gun nuts and Zimmerman defenders in the Pit threads. > > The choice of poll questions may demonstrate again that “the two sides” just don’t understand each other. I agree. The ‘pro’-gun folks seem to sometimes think others want to take away the ability to defend oneself. And the ‘anti’-gun folks seem to think that a gun owner is just looking for an opportunity to shoot someone. I live as a liberal/moderate and own guns. Give me a candidate that I can believe in and I will vote for them. Whatever the stripe. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/24 "2015-08-02T14:05:28Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > How do you feel about requiring gun licenses? That is, they would be shall issue (pass the test and the state shall issue them, not may issue) and require that you pass a series of written, hands on, and live fire tests, overseen by a public servant. If it were up to me, you couldn’t be _forbidden_ to own a gun if you hadn’t passed the tests; but you could be harassed by the requirement to keep returning for testing every month until you passed (with a certificate exempting you from retesting for X number of years). And of course stiff misdemeanor penalties if you shirk your “militia duty”. > [@](#): > > Do you feel that the right is absolute and therefore private individuals should be able to own machine guns, antiaircraft missiles, and atomic warheads if they can afford them? Or, limited? None of the provisions of the Bill of Rights has ever been held to confer a boundless libertarian immunity from government interference, so I wouldn’t expect the 2nd to be an exception. Practically speaking few people would want to bear the expense of heavy military hardware- how many people own decommissioned tanks for instance? In the late 18th century private citizens could own cannon and large stocks of gunpowder, but I doubt many did. If it came to that, I would propose an expanded version of the “militia duty” proposal above. Anyone possessing heavy ordinance would be under something akin to mandatory enlistment in the National Guard, or be required to obtain something like a Letter of Marque, with the penalty for not doing so being charged with piracy or brigandage. > [@](#): > > If the right is limited, why is the limit at where it currently is. Why not roll it back to where bolt actions from ww1 are the limit? Or muskets from revolutionary war era? What hard and fast principle means that a semiautomatic weapon with 30 rounds in the mag, max of 50 caliber is a reasonable “limit”? That’s why so many hard-line 2nd Amendment supporters resist “reasonable” limits- if privately held weapons can be limited to some finite number, what’s to prevent that number from being zero? As for the idea that the 2nd Amendment was based on the technology of the time, I would point out that the exact same argument could be raised against freedom of speech or of the press. Did the Founders really mean that demagogues should be allowed to rabble-rouse to an audience of millions? Did they really mean that pornography should be limitlessly available? 2nd Amendment supporters focus less on specifics and more on the general principle of the balance of force between the public and the government. They would answer “is it necessary for the sake of civil society to impose some degree of helplessness on the population?” in the negative. To be sure even from the beginning that was something of a minarchist ideal held by Jefferson et al, and widely infringed since; but that doesn’t justify a complete surrender to authoritarianism either. In general, if the irresponsible possession and use of weapons poses a threat to society, my answer would be more responsibility, not fewer weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/25 "2015-08-02T19:27:07Z")
Not the results I was expecting from this group. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/26 "2015-08-02T19:59:51Z")
I voted for a right to individual self-defense and that on rare occasion killing a human being might be justified. I did not, however, vote for a _right_ to deadly weapons. Some people can’t be trusted with guns and should not be permitted to own them, and likewise for other dedicated weapons. However, self-defense - even of the lethal variety - does not require a gun or other dedicated weapon. People can and have used kitchen knives, BBQ forks, shovels, bricks, and other objects to successfully defend themselves for ages. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/27 "2015-08-02T21:54:21Z")
The poll seems to have little to do with the gun debate. How can anyone say people have no right to self defense? I guess the only way is to assume that the question is about shooting someone in self defense, which it may well be. Anyway, I took them literally and voted “pro-gun” for all three. I’m not anti-gun but I am anti pro-gun. I don’t agree with much the pro-gun side says and I’ve been through enough shooting courses, visited enough gun ranges and been around enough pro gunners to know that there are a lot of idiots with guns, and that bothers me. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/28 "2015-08-02T22:36:32Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > No gotcha’s, I was genuinely interested in just how deep the philosophical divide goes. Given the militancy of some responses in gun threads, I was surprised that virtually everyone here agrees with the basics. The main quibbles I see so far are on the means rather than the end- who should have how lethal an instrument. Depending on further comments, I may see if I can create a followup thread with a poll focusing on deadly weapons. Even people who are deeply anti-gun might believe that people generically (= adults who have not been convicted of a crime and are not under some kind of restraining order, not necessarily each individual) have the right to possess deadly weapons and not believe they have the right to possess any deadly weapon they would like to. Some might draw the line at nuclear weapons, some at automatics, some might say no guns at all. All could check as agreeing with the fifth statement. One reading of that question is that no one should be allowed to own many knives. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/29 "2015-08-02T23:11:28Z")
Interesting results … my take-away is that there’s not really an “anti-gun” position … rather a position that the government should be allowed to regulate gun-ownership more. We have to demonstrate we can safely drive a car to the government before we get a driver’s license. Right now (nearly) anyone can lawfully buy a gun, the government has to show one can’t be trusted to restrict such. I guess I’m okay with any regulation that doesn’t infringe on my own right to own a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/30 "2015-08-03T00:32:04Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > The poll seems to have little to do with the gun debate. How can anyone say people have no right to self defense? There are some folks in my area who are strict no-violence pacifists _even in self-defense_. They’re called the Amish, and some of their Mennonite cousins have a similar stance. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/31 "2015-08-03T00:50:32Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Pretty sure you’re just doing (a) in my post. You even admitted to it. Or I would prefer to answer the OP in a manner that is satisfactory to him, not in a way that relies on guessing his intent. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/32 "2015-08-03T06:36:59Z")
My responses: People DO have an individual (not collective) right of self-defense Killing someone IS NEVER the right thing to do People HAVE A right to possess deadly weapons Note that I answered whether killing someone is ever the right thing to do from my personal moral perspective. Not whether the right to self defence should include the right to deadly force in defence, which right I believe people do currently have. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/33 "2015-08-03T09:13:30Z")
A couple of observations. 1. There are other nations with high gun-ownership numbers and low murder rates. Also low police shootings. For example Switzerland and Israel. 2. Owning a “gun” in many developed nations means a “long gun”. A rifle or a shotgun. These are used exclusively for hunting deer, pigs, goats, ducks, and local game animals. There is no national concept of owning a “gun” for self defence. For example, I have a shotgun but its stored 120 miles away. I wouldn’t even think about it in terms of use against a human being because the risk is vanishingly small. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/34 "2015-08-03T10:56:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are some folks in my area who are strict no-violence pacifists _even in self-defense_. They’re called the Amish, and some of their Mennonite cousins have a similar stance. I would be surprised if they are answering political polls on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/35 "2015-08-03T11:38:48Z")
I voted no right to self-defense, perhaps overthinking a bit. Of course is someone hits me I would reserve the right to hit back as a last resort and if confronted by an intruder I reserve the right to my baseball bat. Guns, never. Right to kill- no way. Non-lethal alternatives are always available. Right to deadly weapons- nope. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/36 "2015-08-03T11:47:29Z")
You mean less lethal. Non lethal is actually a misnomer. Anything that can incapacitate can also kill. There’s no safe way to incapacitate someone. What’s interesting is that a lot of countries go so far as to ban “non-lethal” self-defense aids. I can see no justification for this. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/37 "2015-08-03T11:59:10Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > I would be surprised if they are answering political polls on the SDMB. Maybe they’re on _Rumspringa_? Living the _vida_ _English_. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/38 "2015-08-03T13:30:53Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > OK, I’m open to suggestions: what general principles are a better test of the divide? Whether a person has a presumptive right to carry a firearm outside of their home for self-defense purposes. Whether someone in public has an obligation to attempt to retreat, if circumstances permit, before using lethal force against another in self-defense. Whether the use of lethal force can be justified to protect property, not just life. Whether someone has the right to use lethal force against someone fleeing a serious crime. And based on the drone thread in GD, whether someone has a right to threaten to use deadly force against others who appear intimidating, but have not carried out any physical encounter or themselves stated any threat of harm. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/39 "2015-08-03T14:23:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are some folks in my area who are strict no-violence pacifists _even in self-defense_. They’re called the Amish, and some of their Mennonite cousins have a similar stance. > [@Fubaya](#): > > I would be surprised if they are answering political polls on the SDMB. True. There ARE Amish websites on the internet, but they’re maintained by other people for the benefit of the Amish. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Maybe they’re on _Rumspringa_? Living the _vida_ _English_. Good one! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737/40 "2015-08-03T14:24:37Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > I fall fairly squarely in the “pro-gun” camp, and even I have trouble imagining an anti-gun person who would actually answer no to any of those questions. I voted that people have no right to own deadly weapons. Americans have a _legal_ right to do so, but my understanding of the poll question is whether we have some inherent right to, and I don’t think we do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-views-on-self-defense-killing-and-weapons/726737.md?page=3)