# You're a prisoner, about to be taken to the death chamber. Morally ok to fight back? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 7, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268 "2013-09-07T18:58:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![10000000GMK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/10000000gmk/32/7305_2.png) [@10000000GMK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/10000000GMK)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/41 "2013-09-10T06:27:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I could yank the pistol from the deputy’s holster, shoot the sheriff, hold everyone else at bay, grab a cayuse, and skedaddle. So you are saying you shot the Sheriff but you didn’t shoot the deputy? A likely story! ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/42 "2013-09-10T07:45:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No. > > The guards don’t know the man is innocent. They know only that he received a fair trial, and multiple appeals. They don’t know he’s guilty, either. Still, they are trying to execute him. I’m pretty sure nobody is forced to participate in an execution. > [@](#): > > It does, in that killing people because of the actions of others is evil. There’s no such thing as collective guilt. It’s not the action of others. It’s their own actions. They’re the ones bringing him to the electric chair or whatever. > [@](#): > > Say Bob is playing pool, […] > > Or, say Bill kills several rival gang members, In both examples, the person is guilty, of attempted murder in the first example, of several murders in the second. In the hypothetical, the person is innocent. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/43 "2013-09-10T13:24:23Z")
The scenario suggests another question: If I do kill a guard while awaiting execution, will I need to be tried for murder on that charge? In other words, can I continue to commit crimes as a way to delay execution? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/44 "2013-09-10T13:36:26Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > They don’t know he’s guilty, either. Still, they are trying to execute him. I’m pretty sure nobody is forced to participate in an execution. They know he’s been found guilty by a court of law. Without personally witnessing a crime, (and even that’s not totally reliable), that’s as close as they can come to knowing he’s guilty. I assume you have no problem with someone using force to defend themselves from being kidnapped and confined. So, can the hypothetical inmate kill to avoid being imprisoned, or to escape prison? Or only if they are to be executed? > [@clairobscur](#): > > It’s not the action of others. It’s their own actions. They’re the ones bringing him to the electric chair or whatever. They are acting in good faith and persuant to a fair legal system. They aren’t attempting murder, so murder can’t be used against them, morally or legally. > [@clairobscur](#): > > In both examples, the person is guilty, of attempted murder in the first example, of several murders in the second. In the hypothetical, the person is innocent. **akennett** would likely disagree, as he/she wrote: > [@akennett](#): > > It is right and moral to resist those who are trying to take your life. This holds for all variants you propose. And one of the variants was the person actually being guilty. That aside, doesn’t this mean our inmate can only kill _one_ guard? Once he does so, he’s guilty of murder, and thus can’t morally kill to preserve his own life, correct? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/45 "2013-09-10T13:47:24Z")
It’s morally wrong for me to kill the guards, period. They were not involved in the miscarriage of justice that brought me to my date with the executioner. They have no reason to believe anything other than that they are taking a murderer to his deserved end. I do not have the right to end their lives and leave their loved ones bereaved, even if I’m otherwise about to be executed unjustly. I would say this even if my chances of escape were 100% once I killed the guards. I would take the hit so that they may live. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/46 "2013-09-10T14:46:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They know he’s been found guilty by a court of law. Without personally witnessing a crime, (and even that’s not totally reliable), that’s as close as they can come to knowing he’s guilty. That’s my point. Death sentences carry the risk of executing an innocent. Someone implementing it accepts that risk, he’s not an innocent bystander. > [@](#): > > I assume you have no problem with someone using force to defend themselves from being kidnapped and confined. So, can the hypothetical inmate kill to avoid being imprisoned, or to escape prison? Or only if they are to be executed? Probably not. > [@](#): > > They are acting in good faith and persuant to a fair legal system. They aren’t attempting murder, so murder can’t be used against them, morally or legally. They’re attempting to kill someone, and this someone is innocent. I definitely consider them morally guilty. Again, nobody is forcing them to kill people who might be innocent. > [@](#): > > That aside, doesn’t this mean our inmate can only kill _one_ guard? Once he does so, he’s guilty of murder, and thus can’t morally kill to preserve his own life, correct? Why? That’s self defense. I don’t think that someone defending is life is guilty of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/47 "2013-09-10T15:32:55Z")
Of course it’s moral. Those people are trying to kill me. It sucks that the guards themselves are (presumably) innocent, but they’re still trying to kill me. My life is the third-most valuable thing in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/48 "2013-09-10T16:24:46Z")
I’d be rooting for the innocent guy to slash and fight his way to freedom and make it to Mexico where he lives out his days in the sun fishing and spending the money he successfully laundered from the crooked warden. When the underdog wins it’s a feel good story. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/49 "2013-09-10T16:55:52Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Also, important note: execution is not murder, murder has a specific definition. It is not interchangeable with “killing”. Killing in self defence isn’t murder either. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/50 "2013-09-10T16:56:00Z")
I see it as being fundamentally different than, say, a lynch mob dragging me over to a tree. According to one [expert,](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/656/when-someone-is-executed-by-lethal-injection-do-they-swab-off-the-arm-first) if I were to start choking on a chicken bone while eating my last meal, or any meal leading up to my execution day, the man you’re proposing I shiv would be the first one in the door to save me. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/51 "2013-09-10T17:46:30Z")
The only way you can possibly attempt to justify killing the guards is if you were innocent in the first place. But, by killing the guards you become guilty of murder, so your actions are no longer justifiable under this criterion. It’s a lose-lose situation. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/52 "2013-09-10T18:01:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think a more interesting version would have you as the prisoner of a tyrannical regime that’s executing you for political resistance. If you were in that situation, would you feel okay breaking out–even if the guards you killed were True Believers in the regime’s ideology? I suspect many people would be all right with breaking out in that scenario, but not in the OP’s scenario, which makes me wonder what moral difference they’d see. I regard the prison guards’ role in the original scenario as fundamentally legitimate: they are carrying out a necessary but unpleasant role in a system of laws that I happen to feel is justified, but has screwed up in a particular instance - mine. I don’t have a gripe with the system as a whole, or with the guards, or with the role the guards are playing. I have a gripe with the people who, through carelessness or dishonesty, put me on death row for a crime I did not commit. In your modified version, I don’t agree with the legitimacy of the system, and believe that those who buy into the legitimacy of that system, or do more than the absolute minimum possible to support that system, are morally in the wrong. This would include the prison guards. They are more akin to soldiers in an enemy or occupying army, from a moral perspective, than to legitimate actors who, through no fault or even knowledge of their own, are carrying out a wrong act. If I believe in a right to self-defense, I believe I have a right to fight and, if need be, kill these guards in order to win my freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/53 "2013-09-10T18:17:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s my point. Death sentences carry the risk of executing an innocent. Someone implementing it accepts that risk, he’s not an innocent bystander. This goes back to the idea of collective guilt. The guards are not responsible for an innocent person being convicted. Would the inmate be justified in killing a member of their jury, if they knew that the juror would vote to convict, but that the alternate would not, thus securing a mistrial? How about kidnapping a juror’s child to influence them to acquit? > [@clairobscur](#): > > Probably not. Well, why? Either it’s self-defense or it’s not. The same reasoning applies to both scenarios, does it not? > [@clairobscur](#): > > They’re attempting to kill someone, and this someone is innocent. I definitely consider them morally guilty. Again, nobody is forcing them to kill people who might be innocent. To clarify: you reserve the moral right to kill guards to the innocent-yet-convicted alone, and not the guilty-and-convicted? > [@clairobscur](#): > > Why? That’s self defense. I don’t think that someone defending is life is guilty of anything. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Killing in self defence isn’t murder either. The right to self-defense isn’t absolute. You can’t defend yourself from a threat you provoked with your own criminal act, for instance. Nor from someone who might be a threat, or once was a threat. Nor from agents of a legitimate state, acting in good faith. That includes prison guards, police trying to make an arrest, a general ordering a private to carry out a risky attack, and so forth. The state’s monopoly on force trumps, or at least it does in a society with the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/54 "2013-09-10T19:08:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I regard the prison guards’ role in the original scenario as fundamentally legitimate > … > In your modified version, I don’t agree with the legitimacy of the system Not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand: does that mean that, if you fundamentally disagreed with the death penalty and with people who enacted the death penalty (I almost wrote “executed,” but that’d be confusing), it’d be legit to kill the guards in the first scenario? What about two other scenarios: 3) You believe that the US prison system is astonishingly racist, and that the death penalty in particular is an atrocity in the US, because black men are unfairly convicted because of institutional and individual racism. This system is, in your belief, totally illegitimate, because (and only because) of this racist issue. You’re innocent, and you believe you were convicted because you’re black. Is it okay to fight back? 3a) Just like above, but this time the only difference is that you’re white, so although the system is illegitimate (due to racism), and although it failed in your case, the reasons for its illegitimacy aren’t the reasons for its failure in your case. Okay to fight back? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/55 "2013-09-10T19:40:25Z")
To answer the question most directly, you have a right to defend your like whether or not you’re guilty of the crime for which you’ve been sentenced to death. Perhaps being innocent may make your choices of how far to go more difficult than someone who would kill for a chocolate bar under normal circumstances anyway. I think it’s quite conceivable that you could, without killing anyone, disrupt and delay an execution long enough to cancel it for the day. For instance, if you severly injure yourself, you may receive treatment and recovery time before they try again. Maybe just escaping an successfully hiding for the day would be enough. I dunno, are there any lawyers out there who can say whether the state’s failure to kill you within a certain timeframe would be sufficient to require the state to some “refresh” or “renew” the execution orders? Of course, these are short-term solutions for a longer term problem. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/56 "2013-09-10T20:44:18Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > None of the details matter. Self defense is the ultimate individual right. If people are coming to harm you, by execution or otherwise, it is not immoral to resist. This was my initial thought. You aren’t ever morally obligated to allow someone to kill you. But expanding on that line of thinking… there’s a notion of “defense of other” as being sort of an extension of self-defense. (At least I’ve heard this mentioned in a legal context. IANAL.) So if you believe a death-row inmate is innocent, are you also morally justified in trying to kill the guards to free them? What if they’re guilty of the crime, but you consider the death penalty immoral? My first thought was, “Well, moral or not, it’s still legal”, but does that mean it’s immoral to resist? What if they were being executed for their political beliefs (to give an example of a law that would be clearly immoral)? ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/57 "2013-09-10T23:01:18Z")
Opinions Opinions. I wouldn’t get into that situation in the first place. I’d be killing people left and right in “self-defense” before they ever got me to death row, because I know how that’s going to end up. If you’re intending on executing me, let’s get that party started and over with right here and now. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/58 "2013-09-11T01:17:10Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > This goes back to the idea of collective guilt. The guards are not responsible for an innocent person being convicted. Absolutely nothing to do with collective guilt. The guards are individually responsible because they choose to participate in the execution. > [@](#): > > Would the inmate be justified in killing a member of their jury, if they knew that the juror would vote to convict, but that the alternate would not, thus securing a mistrial? Dubious. That would be a preemptive murder, not self-defense. You can’t kill someone because you think he’s going to attack you in the future. > [@](#): > > How about kidnapping a juror’s child to influence them to acquit? Same thing. > [@](#): > > To clarify: you reserve the moral right to kill guards to the innocent-yet-convicted alone, and not the guilty-and-convicted? Yep. Generally at least (I’m excluding people whose sentence would be unjust, like a death sentence for stealing a loaf of bread or something). That would be because I’ve no issue on principle with executing murderers (depends on exact circumstances). So, I think that if you killed someone, you’ve no right to fight back, in principle. But I reject the idea that executing an innocent is morally acceptable. Which of course means that in practice I’m opposed to the death penalty. So, if the death penalty exists and you’re guilty : too bad for you. If you’re innocent and can fight back : too bad for whoever decided to participate in your execution. > [@](#): > > The right to self-defense isn’t absolute. You can’t defend yourself from a threat you provoked with your own criminal act, for instance. Nor from someone who might be a threat, or once was a threat. In this case, you didn’t commit a criminal act, and the guards are an immediate threat. > [@](#): > > Nor from agents of a legitimate state, acting in good faith. That includes prison guards, police trying to make an arrest, a general ordering a private to carry out a risky attack, and so forth. The state’s monopoly on force trumps, or at least it does in a society with the rule of law. Legally, certainly. But I’m talking from a moral point of view. You take the risk of killing people hoping other people correctly determined their guilt. If these people were wrong you’re (morally) accomplice to a murder (and so are the jurors, prosecutors, judges…). Again, it’s not collective guilt. You’re guilty because you willingly participated in the process. And very directly so in the case of guards. One should think twice (and more) before participating in a killing, legally sanctioned or not. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/59 "2013-09-11T12:18:02Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Absolutely nothing to do with collective guilt. The guards are individually responsible because they choose to participate in the execution. They chose to participate in the execution of a convicted murderer. How are they to know if one particular inmate is actually innocent? They aren’t doing anything wrong. [QUOTE=clairobscur] Dubious. That would be a preemptive murder, not self-defense. You can’t kill someone because you think he’s going to attack you in the future. [/quote] Odd, then, that the people directly responsible for the execution cannot be harmed, and the people indirectly responsible can. What if your knowledge that killing one juror would result in a mistrial, and that the DA won’t order a second trial, is completely reliable? That is, you are **positive** beyond all doubt that this jury will send you to your death. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Yep. Generally at least (I’m excluding people whose sentence would be unjust, like a death sentence for stealing a loaf of bread or something). That would be because I’ve no issue on principle with executing murderers (depends on exact circumstances). So, I think that if you killed someone, you’ve no right to fight back, in principle. But I reject the idea that executing an innocent is morally acceptable. Which of course means that in practice I’m opposed to the death penalty. So, if the death penalty exists and you’re guilty : too bad for you. If you’re innocent and can fight back : too bad for whoever decided to participate in your execution. I’m not saying executing an innocent person is morally acceptable (though, ignorance of the innocence largely absolves the wrong). I am saying that killing an innocent person to save your own life is _not_ morally acceptable, and that a prison guard carrying out his duties is such an innocent person. > [@clairobscur](#): > > In this case, you didn’t commit a criminal act, and the guards are an immediate threat. Right, just examples to show that the right to self-defense is not absolute. And you will have committed a criminal act once the first stabbing occurs. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Legally, certainly. But I’m talking from a moral point of view. You take the risk of killing people hoping other people correctly determined their guilt. If these people were wrong you’re (morally) accomplice to a murder (and so are the jurors, prosecutors, judges…). Again, it’s not collective guilt. You’re guilty because you willingly participated in the process. And very directly so in the case of guards. One should think twice (and more) before participating in a killing, legally sanctioned or not. In this case, the legality and the morality coincide. As members of a lawful society, we all agree to give up a large portion of our freedom to the Leviathan in exchange for peace and order. The state has the power of life and death over the people, through its various agents: the police, the military, the courts…even food stamps and Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268/60 "2013-09-11T12:22:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They chose to participate in the execution of a convicted murderer. How are they to know if one particular inmate is actually innocent? They aren’t doing anything wrong. … Arguably, they are. They are surrendering their moral judgement to someone else. It’s the old “I was just following orders” line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-a-prisoner-about-to-be-taken-to-the-death-chamber-morally-ok-to-fight-back/668268.md?page=4)