# You're an average Joe with the mind of an elite athlete. In which sport can you do the most good? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 9, 2016, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366 "2016-03-09T01:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/41 "2016-03-15T14:20:46Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Physical gifts always improve with training. For example in soccer to have hope of being a pro you need to rack up tens of thousands of hours practice as a kid and once you’re a pro you’ll be training everyday and just by this you’re going to be in much better physical shape than the man on the street. But whilst there are plenty of soccer players who have physical gifts that the average joe could never get, no matter how much they trained, in my opinion there are plenty of players who are physically no better than the average joe, had they been through the same training regime from an early enough age. The reason is that whilst physical gifts give you an edge, the mental aspect like skill and attitude are more important. > > Matt Le Tissier is possibly my favourite soccer player of all-time. He was supremely skilled and incredibly creative in his play. When the Premiership released a DVD celebrating the 1st ten years of the Premiership, he had scored so many amazing goals that they had a list of the top ten goals just by Matt Le Tissier, the only list specific to one player on the DVD! However he had no discernible physical gifts and for a soccer player was in bad physical shape. In his career he was one of the top players of the early Premiership-era and played for England. Of course given his talent he could’ve achieved a lot more than he did, but that was only in part due to his poor physical shape and gifts - he showed no motivation for wanting to leave Southampton, despite constant interest from bigger clubs. > > In soccer these days there’s more of a trend for the top players to be both supremely-gifted physically and in the mental aspect (e.g. Cristiano Ronaldo), but I still think someone could go very far even with average physical gifts if they had the mental aspect nailed down. One caveat though, soccer isn’t a sport that can be transitioned into, you have to start from a very young age. I played a lot of soccer growing up. 5 time a week for over a decade. I played at a good club where a decent amount of players played in college and maybe a half dozen professionals when I was there. I exercised all the time, but someone like Ned Grabavoy was leaps and bounds beyond my speed and athleticism. Now he’s on the lower end of athleticism in MLS. If by average Joe you mean a guy that could successfully run track in high school, maybe. If you mean the median athlete in the human population, no fricken way. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/42 "2016-03-15T15:20:22Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I played a lot of soccer growing up. 5 time a week for over a decade. I played at a good club where a decent amount of players played in college and maybe a half dozen professionals when I was there. I exercised all the time, but someone like Ned Grabavoy was leaps and bounds beyond my speed and athleticism. Now he’s on the lower end of athleticism in MLS. Similarly, last year, I worked as a statistician / scoreboard operator with the Chicago Blitz, a minor-league indoor football team. Most of their players had played at small colleges, but in the prior season (2014), the Blitz’s quarterback was Juice Williams, who had played QB at Illinois. Williams never even made it to an NFL training camp (he had one tryout with the Bears), but in this minor-league environment, I’m told that he played like a “man among boys”, clearly head and shoulders above anyone else on the field in talent. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/43 "2016-03-15T18:06:16Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > It’s a good point that throwing to second is an important part of catching. But I’m still can’t think of any other sports position that has a better ratio of mental to physical requirements. You are also leaving out that even a catcher who is there mostly for how he calls a game still is required to hit major league pitching. If you hit under .200 there is no way you are even the back up at the major league level. The average person could not break .100. You know what they call a catcher who is great at strategy and is an expert at handling a pitcher staff but can’t hit? Coach. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/44 "2016-03-15T18:14:19Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > You see some successful pro golfers with round physiques (Watson, Craig Stadler, Phil Mickleson at times, and, of course, the poster child for this: John Daly). However, just because they aren’t sculpted doesn’t mean that they lack significant athletic skills, particularly hand-eye coordination and the ability to create and replicate the correct swing. > > Even if you put Tiger Woods’ golf smarts in the body of an average Joe, without that training and innate skill, average Joe will almost undoubtedly still not be able to become a great golfer. Exactly. Otherwise every duffer on every course would be scoring similar to the pros. Hand eye coordination as well as strength and accuracy at that level are not what you would find in any average person. You can’t just practice enough and get on the pro circuit let alone play at a Mikelson level. Don’t equate chubby with unathletlic. NFL lineman are not there because they are big. Plenty of big guys out there. They are also inhumanly fast over short distances with quick feet. Look at the end of Blindside where they have video of Michael Oher dunking a basketball. It’s easy to dismiss the chubby pro athletes because they don’t look like the typical athlete. There is a reason why they are on tv and you are on the couch watching. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/45 "2016-03-16T14:49:48Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > You are also leaving out that even a catcher who is there mostly for how he calls a game still is required to hit major league pitching. If you hit under .200 there is no way you are even the back up at the major league level. The average person could not break .100. You know what they call a catcher who is great at strategy and is an expert at handling a pitcher staff but can’t hit? Coach. You know, there’s someone who already made that point earlier in this thread (emphasis added) > [@Quercus](#): > > Obviously coaching in general is the answer. But if you had to actually play, I’m thinking maybe a baseball catcher. […] Still wouldn’t be professional level, if you’re hitting like an average Joe, but I think that might be the most useful position for a Hall of Fame mind in an average body. I still think it’s an interesting question: in what major-league sport position (that requires physical action) can a mental game matter most substitute for a physical game? Another possibly might be quarterback. Mental abilities are pretty important for an NFL QB: Johnny Football clearly had better physical gifts than Peyton Manning, but we know who the hall of fame QB is out of those two. But I think an average joe, even if he knew exactly where the throw should go, wouldn’t have the arm to be able to complete many passes, and would make basically no contribution (see, um, early season 2016 Manning), whereas an average joe body at catcher could at least make a contribution defensively (again, even if he was overall below replacement level). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/46 "2016-03-16T15:11:36Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > An average Joe hitting against MLB pitching would hit .000, .050 if they are lucky. A good defensive catcher can earn a living at the .250 level. A good defensive catcher better be able to throw out a runner at 2nd which the average guy off the street can not do. All the things you list are important and they are willing to overlook some offensive shortcomings but in no way can you be an average athlete and perform on a major league level. This. Most of us wouldn’t be able to bat .050 against good college pitching, let alone MLB. And good luck on defense as well. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/47 "2016-03-17T15:28:57Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Exactly. Otherwise every duffer on every course would be scoring similar to the pros. Hand eye coordination as well as strength and accuracy at that level are not what you would find in any average person. But the OP specified to assume you had the judgement, timing and strategy of a pro athlete. I am not saying any Joe could be a PGA pro. And maybe our hypothetical unathletic golfer wouldn’t be tops but I could see him getting his tour card. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/48 "2016-03-17T15:41:16Z")
Course management, shot selection and playing the percentages are just more important in golf than athleticism. That’s just judgement and strategy. There’s not a lot of hand eye coordination - the ball ain’t moving. It’s more a matter of concentration. You just have to know how to adjust your swing for different shots. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/49 "2016-03-17T16:50:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Course management, shot selection and playing the percentages are just more important in golf than athleticism. That’s just judgement and strategy. There’s not a lot of hand eye coordination - the ball ain’t moving. It’s more a matter of concentration. You just have to know how to adjust your swing for different shots. This is just comically wrong. It might take a different type of athletic talent, but it is talent nonetheless. Some of the greatest athletes of out time (Michael Jordan, John Elway, Gabby Reece, Ivan Lendl) tried to play the game at a high level and failed. Others like Calvin Peete (one of the great golfers of the 80’s) broke 80 the first time he ever played a round. He made a living selling fruit out of the trunk of his cat to migrant farm workers before becoming a pro. Determination and knowledge aren’t anywhere near enough. BTW, I’d like someone to run through the Top 150 golfers in the world and point out the fat and unathletic ones. The aforementioned Bubba Watson is 6’3" and 180 lbs. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/50 "2016-03-17T18:19:32Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > He made a living selling fruit out of the trunk of his cat to migrant farm workers before becoming a pro. Yeah, sure, an elephant-cat! ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/51 "2016-03-18T02:31:37Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > This is just comically wrong. It might take a different type of athletic talent, but it is talent nonetheless. Some of the greatest athletes of out time (Michael Jordan, John Elway, Gabby Reece, Ivan Lendl) tried to play the game at a high level and failed. I think this runs counter to the point you’re trying to make. Might as well argue that chess is a highly athletic endeavor since Evander Holyfield isn’t a grandmaster. Perhaps you have a different argument for why it’s highly athletic? Wasn’t Michelle Wie out driving some professional men at age 13? ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/52 "2016-03-18T02:46:00Z")
There is no sport you’d excel at. Mental and physical skills support each other. To some extent, experience can make up for physical deterioration, but that’s compensating for exceptional abilities declining to merely outstanding. Most elite athletes past their prime are still much, much better than average Joes. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/53 "2016-03-18T03:07:31Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > F1 drivers are insanely, physically fit and mentally capable. You can’t separate the mental processing and the actual driving and the OP doesn’t really allow for that. > > However, you could be an excellent team principle as you may be able to translate the driver feedback into engineering and set-up changes and also think up smart strategies etc. I agree you need to be a world class athlete to drive a modern F1 car. Im talking about middle-aged fatsos and “ride buyers” in NASCAR and IndyCar who’d probably drop dead of vapor lock after 5 minutes of basketball. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/54 "2016-03-18T03:09:15Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > People always underestimate what it takes to be a pro athlete. It can be hard to tell since they are playing next to other superhumans. A guy who lived across the street from me was a journeyman long snapper on several NFL teams. He was my sister’s age so I remember his playing days. For decades he was the greatest athlete my hometown produced (since then there have been several 1st round picks and decently successful athletes in several sports). I have seen film of him in his high school days. He was a monster. Big, fast, quick; he looked like a man among boys. Every player in the NFL, including practice squads, were probably the best athletes by far on their teams until college. I respect anyone that makes it to the NFL, even as a kicker. But many long snappers would have been drummed out of the league years ago if they didn’t have this one skill. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/55 "2016-03-21T15:37:25Z")
If you had a comprehensive knowledge of the sport and the smarts to call a good race, you could be the coxswain for a rowing team. The coxswain rides in the stern of the boat, doesn’t row, but calls the stroke cadence and strategizes the race, responding to conditions and competitors and strategizing on the fly. It’s an incredibly important position to the sport and a good coxswain can make or break your team. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366/56 "2016-04-11T19:02:18Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > BTW, I’d like someone to run through the Top 150 golfers in the world and point out the fat and unathletic ones. The aforementioned Bubba Watson is 6’3" and 180 lbs. Was just watching the Masters this weekend and thought I’d bump this. Do a image search on #31 world ranking Shane Lowry or especially #37 Aphibarnrat. Not to fat shame, just to point out that an athlete’s body is not what you need to be an awesome golfer, even if the body does give an advantage. Focus, technique and knowledge/strategy are the real key. I am certainly sure that being more “athletic” physically is low on the list of things I need to improve my game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-an-average-joe-with-the-mind-of-an-elite-athlete-in-which-sport-can-you-do-the-most-good/748366.md?page=2)