# You're Being Detained, Sir, For Babysitting Someone of a Different Race **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348 "2008-11-12T15:08:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/61 "2008-11-12T22:06:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The cops were there ensuring that his Granddaughter wasn’t being kidnapped. Are kidnappings more likely to happen when the races are different? Because that’s the only reason that stopping him makes any sense, and it’s a damned poor reason at that. Why wouldn’t a same-race duo be just as suspicious? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/62 "2008-11-12T22:09:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This is ridiculous. You’re the coward. I’m not afraid of cops. I am however very aware of the power they have over any citizen. That power MUST BE countered with a responsible attempt to guard our rights. As you yourself point out, Cops aren’t some mythical knights in shining armor doing their Chivalric duty. They are just like you and me and the the dude at the local Costco loading bay. And just like you and me and the local loading bay guy, they can make mistakes and they can be corrupt or just plain assholes. That is why we must guard our rights. It is not to make their jobs harder, it is to make sure they are doing their jobs correctly and to ensure they do not overstep their authority and in doing so risk the life or liberty of myself or my fellow citizens. > [@](#): > > Being an asshole to a cop for no reason isn’t an example of being, ‘brave’. The cops aren’t your enemies, so it’s not being cowardly to cooperate with them. The fuck? When was this guy being a asshole to cops? Asserting your rights is being an asshole now? THIS kind of thinking is why we have to protect and enforce our rights. Because imbeciles like you soon start to erode them by dismissing them. > [@](#): > > I have friends who are retired cops, friends who are currently cops, and friends who are soon to be cops. I’ve also been harassed by cops and then had a cordial relationship with those same cops when they realized that their harassment of me was silly. How nice for you. > [@](#): > > **Kinthalis** Thuglife 4eva _flashes signs_ The fuck is that supposed to mean, you little shit? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/63 "2008-11-12T22:12:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Are kidnappings more likely to happen when the races are different? Because that’s the only reason that stopping him makes any sense, and it’s a damned poor reason at that. Why wouldn’t a same-race duo be just as suspicious? No, and that is beside the point. The point is that the police did their job and responded to a 911 call. If he had just said, “this is my granddaughter.”, it probably would have been over sooner than it was. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/64 "2008-11-12T22:14:42Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I’m not afraid of cops. I am however very aware of the power they have over any citizen. That power MUST BE countered with a responsible attempt to guard our rights. As you yourself point out, Cops aren’t some mythical knights in shining armor doing their Chivalric duty. They are just like you and me and the the dude at the local Costco loading bay. And just like you and me and the local loading bay guy, they can make mistakes and they can be corrupt or just plain assholes. That is why we must guard our rights. It is not to make their jobs harder, it is to make sure they are doing their jobs correctly and to ensure they do not overstep their authority and in doing so risk the life or liberty of myself or my fellow citizens. I still don’t see how not answering an honest question with an honest answer is championing civil liberties. > [@](#): > > The fuck? When was this guy being a asshole to cops? Asserting your rights is being an asshole now? THIS kind of thinking is why we have to protect and enforce our rights. Because imbeciles like you soon start to erode them by dismissing them. Personal attacks on me don’t make your case. This kind of thinking? You mean where you just answer the cop’s question so he can go on about his business and you can go on about yours? We have some sort of responsibility to civil rights to refuse to answer a question that in no way incriminates anyone? > [@](#): > > The fuck is that supposed to mean? Your automatic assumption that we have an ideological responsibility to be belligerent with cops. It’s very thug life. A corruption of the civil rights movement that assumes that cops are the enemy and that cooperating with them in any way is cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/65 "2008-11-12T22:18:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, and that is beside the point. The point is that the police did their job and responded to a 911 call. If he had just said, “this is my granddaughter.”, it probably would have been over sooner than it was. They were responding to 911 call that _emphasized the racial difference_. You claim that the police were ensuring that no kidnapping was in progress. It is entirely on point. You are the one who mentioned kidnapping. What is it about seeing someone walking with a child of a different race that makes a kidnapping seem likely? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/66 "2008-11-12T22:20:04Z")
Okay, **Kinthalis** and **mswas** , both of you knock it off. Personal insults are not allowed in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/67 "2008-11-12T22:22:35Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > They were responding to 911 call that _emphasized the racial difference_. You claim that the police were ensuring that no kidnapping was in progress. It is entirely on point. You are the one who mentioned kidnapping. What is it about seeing someone walking with a child of a different race that makes a kidnapping seem likely? The 911 call was obviously because someone was concerned about a kidnapping. It is the police’s job to go and ascertain whether or not such a thing happened. As this was not a case of kidnapping they moved on. It may have been over sooner if the man wasn’t belligerent about it. I mentioned kidnapping because it’s an obvious component of this. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/68 "2008-11-12T22:28:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > [Here.](http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/) This story is told in the Thursday 6 November post. > > Now that **wmfellows** has let the cat out of the bag, I have to agree with **Alan Smithee** that there seems no real point to the OP’s elaborate effort to conceal the racial identities here. He could just have given us the actual, uncensored story, and then asked “Do you think the result would or should have been different if the grandfather had been black and the grandchild white?” Well not really. If you read the final paragraphs of Bricker’s selection, it is quite clear which ethnic group / race each party is. He removed the obvious early statements, but even the selection, if you read it to the end lets the cat out of the bag. ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/69 "2008-11-12T22:28:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, and that is beside the point. The point is that the police did their job and responded to a 911 call. If he had just said, “this is my granddaughter.”, it probably would have been over sooner than it was. I submit that, given the facts in the OP and _assuming the police had acted appropriately_, if he had said “am I free to leave?” it would have been over sooner than if he said “this is my granddaughter”. I think that conclusion is obvious given the rest of the responses here, but let me know if I should spell this out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/70 "2008-11-12T22:28:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The 911 call was obviously because someone was concerned about a kidnapping. It is the police’s job to go and ascertain whether or not such a thing happened. As this was not a case of kidnapping they moved on. It may have been over sooner if the man wasn’t belligerent about it. I mentioned kidnapping because it’s an obvious component of this. The police didn’t mention kidnapping. They just said the complaint was about a suspicious looking man of a particular race. You are the one who brought kidnapping into it. Why in the world would a kidnapper be walking hand in hand with his victim in broad daylight? Refusing to answer stupid questions is not belligerence. If they had had a shred of a belief that a kidnapping was going on, he would have been spread-eagled on the ground in a heartbeat. They were just being jerks. There is no reason to kow-tow to such behavior. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/71 "2008-11-12T22:38:28Z")
> [@Carnacki](#): > > I submit that, given the facts in the OP and _assuming the police had acted appropriately_, if he had said “am I free to leave?” it would have been over sooner than if he said “this is my granddaughter”. I think that conclusion is obvious given the rest of the responses here, but let me know if I should spell this out for you. Again you are falling into the trap of thinking that because I don’t agree with you I must not understand something. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/72 "2008-11-12T22:39:19Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Absolutely not. > > I second **Szlater** ’s question. What makes the guy her grandfather? If he had a parental relationship with his goddaughter, perhaps from having a very strong presence in her life or actually raising her in some capacity, it doesn’t seem unusual to me that he would be, for all intents and purposes, “Grandpa” to the kid. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/73 "2008-11-12T22:39:42Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > The police didn’t mention kidnapping. They just said the complaint was about a suspicious looking man of a particular race. You are the one who brought kidnapping into it. Ok, this is ridiculous. I can’t discuss the topic with you. There is only one reason why an adult with a kid might be suspicious. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/74 "2008-11-12T22:41:21Z")
It’s amazing how often people get righteously indignant when the state doesn’t perform how they expect it to because they treat its employees as agents of bureaucracy rather than individual human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/75 "2008-11-12T22:46:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ok, this is ridiculous. I can’t discuss the topic with you. There is only one reason why an adult with a kid might be suspicious. :rolleyes: And the given reason was that he was of a different race. It’s the point of the OP. Again, how many kidnappers take their victims for a stroll in broad daylight? > [@](#): > > It’s amazing how often people get righteously indignant when the state doesn’t perform how they expect it to because they treat its employees as agents of bureaucracy rather than individual human beings. The grandfather wasn’t being treated as an individual human being. He was being treated as a racial stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/76 "2008-11-12T22:47:04Z")
From **Bricker’s** OP story: “Not wanting to violate the failure to identify statute, I gave her my name, address and birthdate but refused to answer any other questions.” Does this mean the cops could have, if they wished, asked the child for her name, address, and birthdate? And assuming that she was unable to supply all or some of these (being only two years old) taken the matter further? If the grandfather then wanted to answer for the small child wouldn’t he then have been required to identify his relationship in order to demonstrate that he was… (not sure of the right term here… “legally allowed?” / “competent?”)… to supply the information? (Was acting _in loco parentis_ or something?) ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/77 "2008-11-12T22:47:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Again you are falling into the trap of thinking that because I don’t agree with you I must not understand something. So you think the police here had sufficient evidence to support either probable cause, or a reasonable suspicion, that a crime had been committed? ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/78 "2008-11-12T23:45:36Z")
Growing up, I had several “grandparents” as well as “aunts and uncles” who were not related to me by blood. However, we spent holidays and such together and I would have identified any of them as “grandma/grandpa/aunt/uncle” to police if questioned while walking together. It’s not that unusual. Also, there is often an automatic racial bias to police response. Call it “experience” or call it “profiling,” the fact is that it is there. I had to call 911 a few years back because a group of young men across the street from my house at 2am had decided to beat the hell out of one of their number. They were literally beating the downed young man with pipes and kicks, and I called 911 to report this. The FIRST thing the operator asked me was “are the assailants black or white?” That gave me pause. Then I considered, maybe they’re just looking for a quick way to ID them? I don’t know why they didn’t ask for a “description,” but I responded that they were black. Then she asked if the VICTIM was black or white. I said “Does it MATTER? He’s getting the shit kicked out of him! He’s black, but so what! I’M white, will that make you get here faster?” This kind of questioning blew my mind. Why was that binary even important in that situation? Utterly floored me. Grandpa was right on. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/79 "2008-11-12T23:50:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So – is there any reason to hear either “white man walking down the street holding black toddler’s hand” or “black man walking down the street holding white toddler’s hand” and believe there’s probable cause that a crime is being committed, or even reasonable, articulable suspicion of a crime? > > My view is: no. But perhaps an argument can be made for erring on the side of caution and protecting the child by investigating. If anyone thinks there is, I’d like to hear it. I don’t personally think that there’s any harm in investigating when you have two people who clearly look like they might not be related. If instead of saying, “No offense, but that’s none of your business.”, he had simply said, “This is my granddaughter and I’m taking care of her because the school was shut down today.”, quite possibly the first police officer would have let him go free. She didn’t profile him, some citizen did, and she was simply coming to investigate and found someone who apparently was reluctant to explain exactly what was going on. If I, as a police officer, was _called_ to investigate a white man with a little black girl and he was reluctant to answer questions, I’d certainly try to put him under the thumb before letting him continue on his way with the little girl. Should police stop a man with a little girl of a different race _of their own volition_? No, probably not, but that’s not the case according to the OP. But again, like I said, there’s no harm in being safe, either, when you can show that in most cases a white man will have white grandchildren and a black man will have black grandchildren. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348/80 "2008-11-13T00:03:03Z")
I am going to come down on both sides. The cops were right to investigate. Let us remember that McVeigh was caught thanks to a routine traffic stop. Many a serious crime is solved thanks to a lucky stop. I will even defend the cops sticking around to find out exactly what is going on. That is their job, and once upon a time we trusted them to do that. The old man was right to stand up for his rights. He could have ended the conversation in 10 seconds flat, but he decided to use his rights. That is fine, and it is his choice. However, there are consequences of standing up for some rights - in his case the cops became MORE concerned. This cost him time and created an uncomfortable situation. I am glad that he had that time to spend, but he should not complain that, given his belligerent attitude, the police decided to keep prying until they could be sure that all was OK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-being-detained-sir-for-babysitting-someone-of-a-different-race/472348.md?page=5)