You're Clinton in '94: What Do You Do About Rwanda

This is why American foreign policy is considered racist.

I like the OP’s question, but the problem is that you’re asking us to state what we would do AFTER THE FACT. We don’t know exactly what President Clinton knew or could reasonably predict. I personally believe in realist foreign policy except in the case of genocide.

My reasons for that are personal but clearly not shared by past administrations.

If President Clinton had admitted that genocide was happening, jammed the airwaves, or done anything remotely active, then he would have been expected to respond.

There is little reason to think that Clinton could have prevented genocide (or the attempt of), but* maybe* we could have intervened. A NATO-type mission would have been needed and I’m not sure we could’ve done that. Congress would not have backed Clinton in any kind of unilateral mission. Our NATO allies clearly weren’t interested. The U.N. was worried about foreign nationals in Rwanda. Like someone else pointed out, the U.N. didn’t help the actual people targeted.

Have you guys seen the West Wing episodes where they respond to a fictional genocide in Africa? It’s loosely based on Rwanda. sigh It sounds so easy to just go and ‘stop genocide’, but it isn’t. Genocide is systematic, bureaucratic, political, and rarely shows how horrific it is until it’s too late. The aftermath of the civil war was just…huge…the Congo nearly blew itself up.

I think if I had been President, I would have raised hell. I hope so. I’d like to think so. I do respect President Clinton for his apology.

What is it about Americans that are so hesitant to go stick up for the non-white foreigners? It’s like we’re only sad when Hollywood makes a movie about it.

No, they don’t. They are, at the very best, loosely bound by public opinion and/or treaties and similar pieces of paper. Ultimately however, nations (and corporations, for that matter) act like sociopaths. They are not here to be moral, but to pursue selfish interests - and that is all they ever do. Sometimes these interests dictate they behave as if driven by morals but you’d be a fool to assess them as moral entities.

What is taking place (or could have happened) in Libya isn’t (wouldn’t have been) a genocide.
In Rwanda, anything that could have possibly be done should have been done. Jamming the radio, sending paratroopers, whatever it takes.

This doesn’t apply only to the USA, but to any other country. It is an absolute shame that nothing was done to prevent the genocide, and we’re all to blame to some extent (except those who were too young, of course). I still feel guilty about it :frowning:

What was happening was well-known all along (and I didn’t even have a TV at the time). Certainly even moreso for a president. It was horrific from the get go.

Indeed. The Hutu militia won the war and they put an end to the genocide. I’d hazard the guess that western militaries could have done at least as much.

That’s not the point of helping other people.

I was just pointing out that you can’t just go and “stop” genocide like you sign a proclamation making it Appreciate Teachers Day or something.

Sounds like a blaring contradiction. If the Rwandan divisions were of political nature more than ethnical ones and the Rwandan conflict actually a totally political conflict, it’s a civil war we’re talking about, not a genocide.
And the motives for intervention are then far more feeble. And so are the criticisms against a lack of reaction from the international community.

Again you want to have the cake and eat it too.

Jews aren’t a race but Nazis made them so. It wasn’t “Germans v. Jews”. It was “Nazis v. Jews”. A Jew in Germany was still thoroughly German. Tutsi and Hutu didn’t exist before the French created those categories. There was a systematic killing of a class of Rwandans - a group that was once picked to be the “Tutsis” for their light skin. The conflict can be both political and racial, no? The Tutsi and Hutus were a an odd mix, but they were clearly two legally separated groups.

From wiki, since it has the UN definition:

*Edit: I was just trying to point out how the other Doper could be correct in that it was genocide, but the racial distinctions between the two groups were…well, silly.

Pesky Frenches, they even create racial divides in countries they never ever controlled.

Even Sven went with the “they’re not all mad tribesmen bent on wiping out each other”, but to justify this she repainted the whole conflict into exactly what constitutes a civil war. Moreover, the way she described the massacres, I fail to see the incomparable lack of morals of the West when clearly the genocide was conceived and acted by Africans.

I’m half African, and it seriously tires my ass to see this kind of reasoning over and over. It was a genocide. It was a genocide perpretated by Africans. And it needed the West to end it, because basically Africans were totally unable to do so. It’s a childish position to be in, sadly it is the position Africa is in. And will never get out of as long as it prefers to comfort itself with childs tales where every responsibilities lie with the West.
The international community failed to prevent the genocide, and for that it should be very harshly criticized. But you cant have “we’re grown ups we can take care of our shit” and “you didnt help us when we needed it, you bastards”.

In this case, it wasn’t. In this case, we knew from the earliest stages exactly what was going on, and were making decisions with nearly full information every step of the way. When we pulled out, 400,00 had been killed over the course of months, all of which was documented, discussed and debated in a leisurely way with cool heads.

Only then, after so much drawn-out discussion, did we decide not to do anything. 400,00 died after.

There were troops ont the ground with a competent general who had developed a well-thought-out plan. Indeed, even with extremely limited resources, he was able to protect a lot of people right up and to the point where he was ordered to pull out and leave the people he had in a safe, fortified position to be killed.

Civil war and genocide are not mutually exclusive. Political identity and ethnic identity are not mutually exclusive- indeed, the two are nearly always intertwined. Reality has a habit of not falling neatly into careful UN definitions. Even genocide can be complex and nuanced while still being completely and horrifically wrong. It’s not the conforming to specific language or falling into a category that makes genocide evil.

Nobody said anything about the West (the “French” reference was about the history of the Hutu/Tutsi ethnicity, and was not about the genocide or positing any foreign role in causing the genocide.) You are the only one who brought up “blame the west,” and it’s a tired old straw man. Congrats on knocking down something that nobody has argued.

My horse in this race is that I find it supremely unhelpful when people describe African conflicts using terms they would not use anywhere else. I don’t understand why, upon seeing black skin, people suddenly forget terms like “ethnicity,” “power base,” and “constituency” and suddenly start talking about “tribes” as if everyone is out chucking spears at each other. When a Southern politician advocates for a pork barrel project for his hometown, that’s just politics. When an African politician does it, it’s “tribal favoritism.” I don’t understand why African conflicts alone are considered products of irrational prejudice, while every other continent has conflicts based on complex economic, political and social situations.

I think this terminology is lazy, insulting, and most of all harmful to Africa. The one thing that will help Africa is investment and business, and if we all walk around with the impression that African are uniquely and irreparably motivation by irrational and unpredictable “tribal prejudice” we are not going to see enough nuance to see when it would be profitable for everyone to invest in Africa.

See Romans 13, states bears the sword to punish evil and to reward good.

Actually the Tutsi-led coalition won the war and ended the gencoide.

Yes, of course. Sorry for the mistake.

If I’m not mistaken, he was a colonel. A Canadian colonel. And IIRC, he never really recovered of the experience.

I stand corrected.

What he has to say on the whole thing is just incredible. He’s one of the few people on this planet who can say they know for sure, that when the pins are down, they will do the right thing.

You seem to be mistaken - he was promoted to brigadier general in 1989.

I really can’t fathom how people can seriously claim that genocides like this are “none of our business.” That policy made sense back in 1700’s, but the world is too small, and our power too great, to pretend that anything that happens past our borders is the world’s problem.

I can generally clear this up pretty easily with a little illustration. Pretend you attend a school that is across the street from another school, and you are an extremely strong, big, guy. Then lets say your out in your school’s field or basketball court, and you happen to glance across the street and see some other guy, or guys, from the other school, walking around their basketball court beating the crap out of everyone smaller then them. Now the reason I added the fact that your huge, is to say that you can easily handle those guys if you had too, ( and for the sake of the illustration, pretend the only thing between those kids and getting beat up is you–no teachers or police or anything). Now if your still going to stand by and tell me that standing by is right because, “its not your business,” then lets up the stakes and say the bullies are walking around killing their fellow students. Again, bear in mind you can put a stop to it very easily and without harm to yourself, if you wished. Its really absurd at this point to continue trying to tell yourself that walking across the street and dealing with it is wrong, and not doing it is morally permissable.
I don’t think the U.S should say, “move aside world, we’re in charge and were gonna do what we want when we want, and if you don’t like it, tough.” Genocides like this should be the absolute #1 interest of the U.N security council. As soon as it starts happening, you have nearly every nation in the U.N create a mass coailition of a million troops, flood the area, stop the genocide, and if need be, establish some form of satisfactory government(clearly this would raise issues between countries like U.S and China butting heads over what form of government would be the best, but that still doesn’t moot the fact that this should be done. China and the U.S would just have to deal with it and reach a compromise) But of course we never take actions like this. We sit around and let more Rwandas happen, let more Dafurs happen, let a dictator like Kim Jong Il to stay in power, and meanwhile the U.N spends the worlds tax dollars so that our leaders can get together on saturdays and yell as each other of the NATO’s missle defense system.

So–in other words–yes, Clinton should have done something.

My understanding was that it would not have taken much to stop the genocide or at least protect people.

There’s a well know story of two UNARMED UN Soldiers successfully protecting a church full of civilians. Just their being on site was enough.