# You're on the Jedi Council. Make 'em less stupid. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 28, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793 "2010-08-28T15:17:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/96bed5/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/101 "2010-08-29T20:09:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Firefox her. I’ll try it in Chrome, but if it doesn’t work, I’m afraid I’ll have to add you to the revenge list. The link worked for me in Opera. I suspect your Firefox is as broken as the Jedi Council. Meanwhile, in on topic land, it was my understanding that Anakin was specially created by the Force, for the purpose of “restoring balance.” And the Council knew it. When the mystical power you worship is trying to destroy you, that’s a pretty good sign you’re doing it wrong. So my response to the OP would be to try to make the Jedi a little more like the Sith and stop trying to deny all of their emotions. I would also constantly remind them that the important distinction is that you can’t let your emotions make all of your judgements for you. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/102 "2010-08-29T20:15:23Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Because … ? > > The Jedi are all about two things: > 1.) Suppressing emotions. But convince me why this is a good thing. The Sith/Dark Side position is obviously a rebellion against this rather preposterous requirement. Asking emotional beings to suppress specific emotions is absurd. It doesn’t work for humans, and one must presume wouldn’t for many other intelligent races. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/103 "2010-08-29T20:18:45Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > From **A Clockwork Melon** > > > > Impossible to redeem someone who had fallen to the Dark Side? Since when? > > I quote: YODA: “Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny.” > > Turns out? Not so much. Guess you’re not in the know about Luke going to the Dark Side. The point was, once you let it into your heart it’s always going to be there, whispering at you, tempting you. > [@RickJay](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > The Jedi are all about two things: > > 1.) Suppressing emotions. > > But convince me why this is a good thing. I don’t have to convince you of anything. That’s how the Force works in Star Wars. Someone who is emotional is going to be tempted to use their emotions to fuel their powers in times of distress. That leads to the Dark Side. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/104 "2010-08-29T20:31:15Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > > > I quote: YODA: “Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny.” > > > > Turns out? Not so much. > > Guess you’re not in the know about Luke going to the Dark Side. The point was, once you let it into your heart it’s always going to be there, whispering at you, tempting you. > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > But convince me why this is a good thing. > > I don’t have to convince you of anything. That’s how the Force works in Star Wars. Someone who is emotional is going to be tempted to use their emotions to fuel their powers in times of distress. That leads to the Dark Side. That’s how the Jedi – or at least Yoda & Obi-Wan – say the Force works. There’s plenty of textual evidence that they’re full of crap. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/105 "2010-08-29T20:40:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > Guess you’re not in the know about Luke going to the Dark Side. The point was, once you let it into your heart it’s always going to be there, whispering at you, tempting you. > > > > I don’t have to convince you of anything. That’s how the Force works in Star Wars. Someone who is emotional is going to be tempted to use their emotions to fuel their powers in times of distress. That leads to the Dark Side. > > That’s how the Jedi – or at least Yoda & Obi-Wan – say the Force works. There’s plenty of textual evidence that they’re full of crap. Yes, that’s how the Jedi say the Force works and that’s how it works. The Jedi have it right. It’s even stated as fact by third-party sources such as the Power of the Jedi sourcebooks, which are as canonical as Expanded Universe materials, which, incidentally, also support this view. You can blame Lucas for having created such a dumb system. That’s why I asked you back on the first page: > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Well, it comes down to whether you think the Jedi were right. When I say that I think the Jedi are right I only do so because it’s canon. In this hypothetical does the Force operate as the Jedi say it does or does it turn out that they were wrong? The Jedi say that giving into emotions, even positive ones, can lead to the Dark Side. Is that true or isn’t it? > [@The ever infallible Wikipedia](#): > > As portrayed in all Star Wars-related media, the dark side provides powers similar to those of the Jedi — telepathy, psychokinesis, and precognition — but draws energy from passion; an energy that is enhanced by emotion. Examples include Force lightning, as used by Palpatine (Ian McDiarmid) in Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi and Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, and using the Force to choke people, as used by Darth Vader in Revenge of the Sith, A New Hope and Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back. > > While the original films depict the dark side as a general concept of evil, the prequels and Expanded Universe material elaborate on its nature, explaining that it may stem from all strong emotions, both positive and negative. To avoid this pitfall, the Jedi forsake all passion and emotional attachment (including love) in order that civilization as a whole may benefit, while the Dark Jedi and Sith draw strength from their passion to grant them power. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/106 "2010-08-29T20:42:48Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > However, along with this I would partly relax other rules. Those who are sent to the order as children are trained monastically, but permitted to wed/whatever their alien cultures does. Those who join past age 12 or so (or whenever their species gets the big Pube-Erty or whatnot) might not be allowed in relationships and the order. > > Th reason is that those who were trained from a very young age are much less likely to cause trouble if permitted some latitude than those who were already mentally developed. Likewise, I figure the kids are less likely to freak out later on and take a giant flaming leap into the dark side. > > Those who join later probably include a lot more who want to “be somebody” or want to live out their fantasies. That’s a lot more dangerous, since they might feel more tempted to abuse their power. Your psychological assumptions here lack plausible causal lines. Those trained as Jedi from near-infancy would only know the Jedi life. No reason not to think that some of them would change allegiances just looking for something new. Whereas those who started later might feel they “chose” the Jedi. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/107 "2010-08-29T20:45:45Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Yes, that’s how the Jedi say the Force works and that’s how it works. The Jedi have it right. It’s even stated as fact by third-party sources such as the Power of the Jedi sourcebooks, which are as canonical as Expanded Universe materials, which, incidentally, also support this view. Your lack of skepticism is … disturbing. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/108 "2010-08-30T01:58:49Z")
Well, since I’m on the Jedi Council, and there seems to be such a die-hard undercurrent of Orthodox Jediism floating around, I’ll do better than just go with it…I’ll _improve_ on it. Since feelings and emotional attachments are detrimental to Good Jedi, but suppressing them is unnatural and detrimental to most sapient life, the answer is simply to recruit Jedi from disciplined, unemotional forms of life. And if I cannot find them, they must be created. [Cyberneticizing](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lobot) existing force-sensitives may be an option, but for the proper numbers and reliability, I’d prefer to go with a non-organic approach. [Silicon based Jedi with droid bodies](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Knights) are not unknown, but I would attempt to create wholly AI controlled Jedi droids—perhaps using cell cultures or harvested biological material from force-sensitives, housed within a droid body. “There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no flesh, there is a mere vessel. Hand over your flesh, The Force demands it.” ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/109 "2010-08-30T02:04:53Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > Yes, that’s how the Jedi say the Force works and that’s how it works. The Jedi have it right. It’s even stated as fact by third-party sources such as the Power of the Jedi sourcebooks, which are as canonical as Expanded Universe materials, which, incidentally, also support this view. > > Your lack of skepticism is … disturbing. > > 🆒 Fool of a Took! You mean you _find_ my lack of skepticism disturbing? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/110 "2010-08-30T03:22:56Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > That’s how the Jedi – or at least Yoda & Obi-Wan – say the Force works. There’s plenty of textual evidence that they’re full of crap. > > Yes, that’s how the Jedi say the Force works and that’s how it works. The Jedi have it right. So why do they so often get it wrong? We’re being asked to interfere in the SW universe here, and the way I’d interfere in it is to do away with the rules\* that to all appearances had serious unintended consequences.\* ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/111 "2010-08-30T03:24:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > Yes, that’s how the Jedi say the Force works and that’s how it works. The Jedi have it right. > > So why do they so often get it wrong? Like when? Keep in mind that when I say “the Jedi have it right” I’m referring to their stated beliefs regarding how the Force functions. Individual Jedi are of course capable of being wrong, often disastrously so. Example: Allowing Anakin to begin training despite being too old. They were really wrong there. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/112 "2010-08-30T16:34:54Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Your lack of skepticism is … disturbing. > > > > 🆒 > > Fool of a Took! Come up with your own insipid, repetitive, boring catchphrase to overuse until have the board wants you dead, please. That one’s mine. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/113 "2010-08-30T17:35:21Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > Fool of a Took! > > Come up with your own insipid, repetitive, boring catchphrase to overuse until have the board wants you dead, please. That one’s mine. I have no interest in making it my catchphrase. I only use it when I’m talking to you! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/114 "2010-08-30T18:07:24Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > [Your psychological assumptions here lack plausible causal lines. Those trained as Jedi from near-infancy would only know the Jedi life. No reason not to think that some of them would change allegiances just looking for something new. Whereas those who started later might feel they “chose” the Jedi. Disagree. Those exposed to Jedi during their formative years are likely to be a lot more trustworthy with power than those not. You can never get the kind of “buy-in” from someone who’s not used ot it no matter how much they might seem to like it. Once your personality is formed, you’ll never totally belong to anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/115 "2010-08-30T20:11:59Z")
I disagree. There are always those who will be tempted by whatever pleasures lie outside their experience. The Grass Is Always Greener is a powerful driving force. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/116 "2010-08-31T00:24:37Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > > > …Answering with a wisecrack is not only always possible, but something I encourage. 🙂 > > Wisecrack, or wisecrack not. There is no try. Serious or not, are you? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/117 "2010-08-31T21:26:06Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > > Wisecrack, or wisecrack not. There is no try. > > Serious or not, are you? > > 😕 That… is why you fail. ---
**Author:** ![Ennui](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ennui/32/3396_2.png) [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/118 "2010-09-01T00:43:56Z")
We might be approaching this problem from the wrong angle. We have, at length described the problems of Jedi but were talking about a group with thousands of years of institutional inertia. I don’t think one person can productively alter that trajectory in a small time frame, _from the inside_. We’ve all seen the movies, we know what the schemes are and where the betrayals happen. I submit that it’s the Sith who are better positioned to be the change agents. Off Palpatine, it can’t be impossible and assume his position. Who says there has to be an empire? Or if there is one, why not one that’s sorta laid back and life affirming? The clone army stays, as a balance against the Jedi but we totally re-work general order 66. Instead of a hidden “trap door” addenda, it’s completely open and in fact part of the clone armies stated mission. And it’s no longer to kill the Jedi, it’s to dope slap them and tell them to stop being stupid any time they display over ridged adherence to some of the more ridiculous things Lucas wrote into them. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/119 "2010-09-01T02:51:23Z")
> [@Ennui](#): > > We might be approaching this problem from the wrong angle. We have, at length described the problems of Jedi but were talking about a group with thousands of years of institutional inertia. I don’t think one person can productively alter that trajectory in a small time frame, _from the inside_. > > We’ve all seen the movies, we know what the schemes are and where the betrayals happen. I submit that it’s the Sith who are better positioned to be the change agents. Off Palpatine, it can’t be impossible and assume his position. Who says there has to be an empire? Or if there is one, why not one that’s sorta laid back and life affirming? > > The clone army stays, as a balance against the Jedi but we totally re-work general order 66. Instead of a hidden “trap door” addenda, it’s completely open and in fact part of the clone armies stated mission. And it’s no longer to kill the Jedi, it’s to dope slap them and tell them to stop being stupid any time they display over ridged adherence to some of the more ridiculous things Lucas wrote into them. So you want to turn the Clone Troopers into the Templars from Dragon Age: Origins? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793/120 "2010-09-03T14:43:53Z")
Let’s see: Not everyone in the overall organization needs to be a warrior. Some of us will be negotiators, librarians, healers, councillors. Others will be Knights: A more lenient attitude to mixing Dark and Light powers. A Gray stance, if you will Armour - something in red, maybe, with some Cortosis in it somewhere, say…a gauntlet? Allegiance and duty ultimately to the Force, not some impermanent political entity, be it Republic or Imperial Standard-issue sabres, not this “mystical weapon” crap. Also, guns. Celibacy go bye-bye. Cut the ascetic bullshit - your choice of off-duty clothing, regular pay, civilian friends. Does any of that sound…[familiar](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight)? Oh, and paid-for Twy’lek hookers for any Jedi who don’t want fixed relationships. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-on-the-jedi-council-make-em-less-stupid/551793.md?page=5)