# You're right, Danny C...there is no god. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983 "2011-01-25T23:35:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/121 "2011-01-27T18:08:18Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Of course there is, **Dio**. In layman’s terms, it’s called the Universal Mind. The process of life & rebirth is to join with that higher power, and escape this stupid, hellish world. Belief in reincarnation is not a necessary component of Buddhism, and there is no belief at all that you “join with a higher power.” Your understanding of Buddhism is not very accurate. > [@](#): > > You keep asking for scientific “proof” for an inherently philosophical question. No, I 'm asking for scientific proof for a factual assertion. You have asserted that there is some sort of “higher power.” That is a scientific assertion, not a philosophical one. You have said that atheists “ignore the evdience” for this scientific claim. What are atheists ignoring? You can’t try to weasel it as being outside the purview of scientific evidence, because you already asserted it as a scientific fact (whether you realize that or not). > [@](#): > > That won’t work – it’ll just keep you running in circles. You’re the one running in circles here. > [@](#): > > Let me ask you something – is there _any_ evidence I can give you, or that anyone else can give you, which you’ll accept without fail? Evidence for WAHAT? You have to explain exactly what it is you’re asserting before I can tell you whether a falsifiable test is possible. > [@](#): > > I don’t think so. The journey is a grand mystery, and it’s each individual’s responsibility to discover his or her own _personal_ truth. Not facts – _truth._ This is evasive, meaningless gibberish ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/122 "2011-01-27T18:14:25Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Let me ask you something – is there _any_ evidence I can give you, or that anyone else can give you, which you’ll accept without fail? I don’t think so. Any one piece of evidence? No. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In order to convince me of the existence of a deity you’d need to provide numerous consistent pieces of evidence that all fit together to support your hypothesis. But the same is true of any extraordinary claim. For example, there’s no single piece of evidence that would convince me the moon is made of green cheese. However, given a consistent pattern of evidence that supported that hypothesis, I’d eventually accept it. > [@](#): > > The journey is a grand mystery, and it’s each individual’s responsibility to discover his or her own _personal_ truth. Not facts – _truth._ It’s impossible to know “the truth” about anything. The best we can do is create mental models that accurately describe how the world behaves. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/123 "2011-01-27T18:20:09Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Their emphasis on the spiritual over the physical causes them to disregard the real physical harm they do in the world. Killing people, even killing yourself, can be rationalized as a good and just course of action. What does it matter if you blow yourself up today if tomorrow you wake up in eternal paradise? > > The cavalier attitude toward real-world pain and suffering that spirituality can encourage is one of the main evils of religion. Naturally, it’s a dual-edged sword. There’s a Mother Teresa for every Jim Jones; and while I hope & pray the number of “good” religious people outweigh those who are completely delusional, as time marches on, it becomes increasingly difficult to determine where the exact balance lies. Let’s put it this way – last night I watched a History Channel program about the Seven Seals of the Apocalypse, as “foretold” in the Book of Revelation – yes, to rational people it’s obvious bullshit, but to millions of others (especially Tea Party-minded Christians) it is factual, future truth. Even worse, they’re not afraid of Armageddon – they _want_ the Apocalypse to happen! They’d even support the Antichrist’s presidential campaign, merely because they’ve deluded themselves into believing that Jesus Christ will ultimately triumph, to unite Heaven & Earth while the sinners (aka everyone they don’t like) burn in hell. That’s…scary. :eek: And frankly, that’s my primary disdain for genuine atheism (_not_ agnosticism – have we reached that consensus yet??) – because atheism is an inherently selfish faith, and its practitioners rarely perceive any greater truth beyond their own very small community. Sure, they obey the law, assist friends & family, donate to charity, and may even fight and die for their country when called upon – but that’s basically where their sense of universal responsibility ends. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If all you are going to do is answer questions for other people, while refusing to answer question others ask you, why bother doing it at all? I’m sorry…was there a question that I missed? I don’t think I skipped one (at least, for which any satisfactory answer exists) but if you think I’m mistaken, I’ll give it a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/124 "2011-01-27T18:25:55Z")
Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief. You also need to learn the definition of “agnosticism.” You are throwing around these words without understanding what they mean. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/125 "2011-01-27T18:27:28Z")
> [@fuzzypicles](#): > > I’m sorry…was there a question that I missed? You claimed that atheists “ignore” evidence for a “higher power.” What are they ignoring? ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/126 "2011-01-27T18:28:15Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > In order to convince me of the existence of a deity you’d need to provide numerous consistent pieces of evidence that all fit together to support your hypothesis. Okay, I see where this debate went awry. I’m not attempting to convince or convert anybody – just speaking my mind, nothing more. As for “extraordinary” evidence…well, that’s not my department. 🆒 If you’re genuinely seeking divine wisdom, you must do the work yourself – NOBODY can provide the answers for you. Only you can do that. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > It’s impossible to know “the truth” about anything. The best we can do is create mental models that accurately describe how the world behaves. Truth is relative – facts are not. (And even facts can be deceptive, especially if someone like Mark Fuhrman gets his sticky fingers on the bloody glove…) But your final sentence is absolutely correct – we can _never_ comprehend the full story, not until we pass beyond the veil of infinity. (And probably not even then!) All anyone can do is determine the best course of action, based on what we know and what we truly desire, and take a shot in the dark. Once you reach _that_ particular level of enlightenment, you’re good to go. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/127 "2011-01-27T18:29:04Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > I’m sorry…was there a question that I missed? I don’t think I skipped one (at least, for which any satisfactory answer exists) but if you think I’m mistaken, I’ll give it a shot. You claim that there is evidence out there that atheists refuse to see. What is that evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/128 "2011-01-27T18:29:14Z")
Truth is not relative. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/129 "2011-01-27T18:33:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You claim that there is evidence out there that atheists refuse to see. What is that evidence? Already asked & answered – kindly refer to my previous reply. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Truth is not relative. How so? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/130 "2011-01-27T18:35:23Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > There’s a Mother Teresa for every Jim Jones; and while I hope & pray the number of “good” religious people outweigh those who are completely delusional, as time marches on, it becomes increasingly difficult to determine where the exact balance lies. The good religious people are just as delusional as the bad ones. The fact that their delusions happen to be beneficial to the rest of us is an accident. > [@](#): > > And frankly, that’s my primary disdain for genuine atheism (_not_ agnosticism – have we reached that consensus yet??) – because atheism is an inherently selfish faith, and its practitioners rarely perceive any greater truth beyond their own very small community. Sure, they obey the law, assist friends & family, donate to charity, and may even fight and die for their country when called upon – but that’s basically where their sense of universal responsibility ends. How is that different from the level of universal responsibility displayed by 99.99% of all theists? So because there is no atheist Mother Teresa (who is an exceptional outlier), we’re supposed to believe that atheists have no morality. I’d argue that it’s more likely that atheism simply lops the ends off the bell curve. You’re less likely to find an atheist Mother Teresa, but you’re also less likely to find an atheist Mohamed Atta. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/131 "2011-01-27T18:36:25Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Already asked & answered – kindly refer to my previous reply. Didn’t see any answer in there, but that might be my fault. Please clarify as to what the evidence is, please. Edited to add: And if you ask a question of atheists, it would be polite to actually let them answer it themselves instead of doing it for them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/132 "2011-01-27T18:36:44Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Already asked & answered – kindly refer to my previous reply. You have not answered it. > [@](#): > > How so? By definition, truth is objective. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/133 "2011-01-27T18:44:41Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > As for “extraordinary” evidence…well, that’s not my department. If you’re genuinely seeking divine wisdom, you must do the work yourself – NOBODY can provide the answers for you. Only you can do that. You ASKED what it would take for us to be convinced of the existence of God. I’m answering your question. Did you even notice that my answer directly contradicts your curious belief that atheists are rigid ideologues who are immune to evidence? > [@fuzzypickles](#): > > But your final sentence is absolutely correct – we can _never_ comprehend the full story, not until we pass beyond the veil of infinity. You fail to grasp the significance of what I’m saying. We can never be absolutely certain of ANYTHING, even things that seem as transparently obvious as the existence of a chair in front of us. Every piece of knowledge that we have about the world is a provisional construct. And the idea that the “truth” will somehow be revealed after we die is a cruel lie. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/134 "2011-01-27T18:48:43Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > So because there is no atheist Mother Teresa (who is an exceptional outlier)… Even Mother Teresa was no Mother Teresa, at least as far as I’ve heard on these boards. She apparently withheld some care because she believe that pain was good for the soul or something, and gave money that was clearly meant for her hospital over to the Church. Closer to a Mother Teresa ideal was maybe the nun mentioned in this op-ed ([http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?ref=opinion](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?ref=opinion)) who performed an abortion on a woman who apparently would have died otherwise. Of course, the Church did the right thing in that case by excommunicating her and then disassociating itself from the hospital completely. No wait…that wasn’t the right thing to do. Anyway, since I’m posting here, I just want to mention that I don’t collect stamps. That’s my main hobby. (In another similar thread, someone mentioned that I have a disturbing fetish about stamps, so I need to keep my reputation going, I suppose) ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/135 "2011-01-27T18:48:48Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The good religious people are just as delusional as the bad ones. The fact that their delusions happen to be beneficial to the rest of us is an accident. Okay, well…if you’re gonna nitpick _that_ part, then yes, I’m forced to agree with you. But at least we can agree that their specific delusion is _harmless_, correct? As long as they’re not blowing up abortion clinics or smearing feces on themselves, who cares what any individual believes? Why waste time confronting their faith? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By definition, truth is objective. Oh Good God… Do I _have_ to pull out the dictionary again? I’m becoming rather annoyed by your rigmarole, **Dio**. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/136 "2011-01-27T18:49:10Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Pretty much, as long as you’re able to comprehend that Time itself is merely a temporal dimension; and for non-discrete objects, the Arrow of Time isn’t necessarily linear. > (ref: Stephen Hawking) That doesn’t answer my questions, and in fact doesn’t answer them in a particularly useless manner. Once the afterlife human has achieved this full non-discrete perception, why would their time on Earth with its boring linear path to entropy matter? Somehow, that finite time leads to an eternity (or at least perceptual eternity where time is fluid) of… what, exactly? Contemplating and analyzing and re-analyzing every possible minute aspect of that finite life? Can the soul-in-afterlife go on to gain new experiences and knowledge? Doesn’t this crowd out the experiences and knowledge gained on Earth? If it does not, are the souls capable of infinite knowledge, as would be inevitable with an infinite existence? If it does not, does that mean the souls can “forget” things and rediscover them a microsecond/eon later? I get that the fear of death makes the _idea_ of an afterlife tempting, where the good are rewarded and wicked punished and all that, but I’ve never seen a theory about how it works that… well, works. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/137 "2011-01-27T18:57:17Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Naturally, it’s a dual-edged sword. There’s a Mother Teresa for every Jim Jones; and while I hope & pray the number of “good” religious people outweigh those who are completely delusional, as time marches on, it becomes increasingly difficult to determine where the exact balance lies. > > Let’s put it this way – last night I watched a History Channel program about the Seven Seals of the Apocalypse, as “foretold” in the Book of Revelation – yes, to rational people it’s obvious bullshit, but to millions of others (especially Tea Party-minded Christians) it is factual, future truth. Even worse, they’re not afraid of Armageddon – they _want_ the Apocalypse to happen! They’d even support the Antichrist’s presidential campaign, merely because they’ve deluded themselves into believing that Jesus Christ will ultimately triumph, to unite Heaven & Earth while the sinners (aka everyone they don’t like) burn in hell. That’s…scary. :eek: > > And frankly, that’s my primary disdain for genuine atheism (_not_ agnosticism – have we reached that consensus yet??) – because atheism is an inherently selfish faith, and its practitioners rarely perceive any greater truth beyond their own very small community. Sure, they obey the law, assist friends & family, donate to charity, and may even fight and die for their country when called upon – but that’s basically where their sense of universal responsibility ends. > I’m sorry…was there a question that I missed? I don’t think I skipped one (at least, for which any satisfactory answer exists) but if you think I’m mistaken, I’ll give it a shot. In addition to the inability to reason I mentioned upthread, I should add the inability to incorporate new information that challenges their beliefs. How many times has fuzzy been told that he or she isn’t using vocabulary correctly? Also, he or she runs away and changes the subject when asked to defend his or her claims. Fuzzy isn’t here to debate, he or she is here to blindly repeat his or her thesis without regard to how intellectually worthless it is. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/138 "2011-01-27T19:04:37Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > In addition to the inability to reason I mentioned upthread, I should add the inability to incorporate new information that challenges their beliefs. How many times has fuzzy been told that he or she isn’t using vocabulary correctly? > > Also, he or she runs away and changes the subject when asked to defend his or her claims. Fuzzy isn’t here to debate, he or she is here to blindly repeat his or her thesis without regard to how intellectually worthless it is. Well, GD is the place for witnessing, and this very thread was moved here because it was deemed a witnessing thread. I think the better question is, why engage in debate with someone who is obviously witnessing? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/139 "2011-01-27T19:12:47Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > As long as they’re not blowing up abortion clinics or smearing feces on themselves, who cares what any individual believes? Why waste time confronting their faith? Because believing delusional things can lead to all sorts of minor errors as well as big life-or-death ones. For example, religious beliefs underlie a lot of the casual cruelty that’s inflicted on homosexuals. We now know that there’s no rational reason to be ashamed of being gay. But lots of people still feel that way, usually because they’ve been taught within their religion that homosexuality is a sin. The fact that “homosexuality is a sin” is an irrational and delusional belief makes it much harder to argue against. You can martial all the facts you want to support your position, but if someone believes “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” it’s very difficult to convince them otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983/140 "2011-01-27T19:27:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, I’ll assume Cyning hasn’t run into anything that can only be explained by invoking a god, but I’m sure we’d all like to hear another testing methodology if you know of one. Its the standard use of the scientific method, that is, using logic to start from a premise and reach a reasonable and logical conclusion. Theists are annoyingly stubborn when they’re asked to dismiss their unrelenting need to be at the center of the universe when they consider questions of existence. They are refusing to acknowledge that with every scientific discovery, the human experience has repeatedly being removed from the center of importance that theism has at its core of its unsupported and baseless ideology. Existence questions and their examination have to be independent of the entity that examines them otherwise they are biased, and that fact alone renders theism as a useless and pointless exercise in self-absorption. As an example of human-centric nature of theism, there has never been a case where a theist has described what their preferred deity was doing during, let’s say, the last 50 million years of the Cretaceous period. Were they twiddling their divine thumbs waiting for when some random human will call on their supernatural powers to influence the result of a slot machine in Las Vegas, on September 17, 1983? Not to mention letting us know what the theistic spirit was doing between 12 and 12.3 billion years after the Bing Bang. Counting helium atoms? On the other hand, any knowledge we have acquired using logic is independent of human bias (most of the time). For example, Gravity is a universal reality. It doesn’t matter that it was humans that discovered it and its laws, however complete our knowledge of it is yet. If people don’t accept the fact that the universe and its laws exist independently of the human species, or our solar system, or our galaxy, and the fact that if their claims are true, then they should be valid whether or not humans exist, then all their claims have to be discarded as fantasies and therefore false. That’s why theism is false. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-right-danny-c-there-is-no-god/568983.md?page=8)