# You're supposed to obey police' lawful orders. What orders are lawful, and how do we know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 23, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007 "2015-07-23T23:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007/41 "2015-07-26T16:56:53Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Let me elucidate what happens in Texas when you refuse a search of your vehicle during a traffic stop. > > The cop will then arrest you, as he can by law for anything aside from speeding or open container, and then your vehicle is inventoried AKA searched anyway. > > Oh you say wait! I was pulled over for speeding! I can’t be arrested! > > You will still be arrested and your vehicle inventoried, and you will then find you have not only a citation for speeding but also some other one like failure to maintain proper lane or some other fictitious citation that allows the arrest. It will be claimed the officer saw you veering too far during a turn etc. > > This isn’t hypothetical, this is an actual case I know of. In states that allow an officer to arrest for traffic citations the fourth amendment as applies to vehicles is basically null. Correct, but I think Texas is the only State so stupid as to make basically the entire traffic code arrestable offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007/42 "2015-07-26T17:00:03Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Let me elucidate what happens in Texas when you refuse a search of your vehicle during a traffic stop. > > The cop will then arrest you, as he can by law for anything aside from speeding or open container, and then your vehicle is inventoried AKA searched anyway. > > Oh you say wait! I was pulled over for speeding! I can’t be arrested! > > You will still be arrested and your vehicle inventoried, and you will then find you have not only a citation for speeding but also some other one like failure to maintain proper lane or some other fictitious citation that allows the arrest. It will be claimed the officer saw you veering too far during a turn etc. > > This isn’t hypothetical, this is an actual case I know of. In states that allow an officer to arrest for traffic citations the fourth amendment as applies to vehicles is basically null. I should add this situation is probably going to end in 15-20 years as the GOP has little chance of being nationally electable and thus the Supreme Court will become more liberal over time. The current 5 conservative justice majority has upheld the constitutionality of arresting people for minor traffic offenses, but only by 5-4. Liberal jurists are inclined to view such statutes as violating the “cruel and unusual” punishment clause of the constitution or the “unreasonable seizure” clause, and the longer we have a Democrat in the White House the more likely you see a supreme court that will strike down the constitutionality of arresting people for things like not wearing their seatbelt in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007/43 "2015-07-26T17:46:10Z")
> [@Redshirt](#): > > So if the cop told you you were required to consent to a search, what would the judge say? Consenting to a search is a waiver of your constitutional right not to be searched without a warrant. Waivers of constitutional rights must be knowing, intelligent and voluntary to hold up in court. If I was representing a person who had asked a police officer if they had a choice about a search, and who was told by the officer that they didn’t, I would argue that the waiver was ineffective because it wasn’t made knowingly and intelligently as to my client’s right to refuse the search. I would think I had a pretty darn good case, too, but it’s one of those things that depends on every little fact that makes up the surrounding circumstances. If the conduct of the officer didn’t suggest anything coercive, and was just tricky somehow, it could be OK. ---
**Author:** ![contradancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@contradancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/contradancer)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007/44 "2015-07-27T17:23:32Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > “I am the law”. > > Unless the cop is asking you to do something that can’t be reversed - like get on your knees while he shoots you in the back of the head - obey what he says. Don’t say a thing, and get a lawyer ASAP. I’m an older woman and I absolutely agree, or I could end up in a ditch like that old woman that kept verbally resisting and got tasered into a ditch over a traffic stop. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007/45 "2015-07-27T18:18:40Z")
What I have done (wisely or otherwise) in a few similar situations is say “I don’t want to. If this is an order that I legally have to obey, I will, but if I am allowed to refuse, I am refusing”. I am well aware of the possibility that the cop will just keep getting angrier and keep repeating the order without clarifying whether I do or do not have the authority to refuse. If the order is repeated that way I’m going to treat that as an assertion that yes I have to obey the order. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007/46 "2015-07-27T21:44:37Z")
Disobeying an unlawful order from a policeman is no different than disobeying an unlawful order from any other person or organization, except the policeman has a gun and is authorized to use it. if you decide to challenge the police, IRS, the judge in court, or anyone else with authority and power - you may win in the long run, but it could be a painful and long fight… and if you don’t win (has happened!) it could be painful, expensive, and life-altering. ---
**Author:** ![contradancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@contradancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/contradancer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007/47 "2015-07-28T04:26:56Z")
In my families case, it ended in a year long prison sentence, a felony conviction, and an experience that forever altered this person’s life. If you are innocent, accept whatever deal they give you and don’t stand on principle to prove you are innocent. Once you are in the system you may as well be in Russia. Unless you are rich. Nothing like on TV. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007/48 "2015-07-28T17:43:40Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > if you decide to challenge the police, IRS, the judge in court, or anyone else with authority and power - you may win in the long run, but it could be a painful and long fight… and if you don’t win (has happened!) it could be painful, expensive, and life-altering. The IRS is not so bad as long as you stay in the system- Appeals and the Tax Court are pretty taxpayer friendly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-supposed-to-obey-police-lawful-orders-what-orders-are-lawful-and-how-do-we-know/726007.md?page=2)