# You're the POTUS. A nuclear first strike is inbound. Do you authorise the second strike? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579 "2011-05-28T17:03:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/121 "2011-05-31T17:02:19Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Of course this is all going to be speculation but I don’t think Hitler or anyone would have the capability of ruling the world. There simply isn’t enough people for one country to do that, even if you take China and India and combine them into some superstate. You’re still going to have mostly normal folks running the day to day operations halfway across the world. You can’t simply kill everyone because you’re still outnumbered, and there is no way that everyone from the leader to the ordinary soldiers are going to be as fanatical in upholding the regime’s values. See: colonial empires dying out one by one as each colony seceded or rebelled in turn, while on the other hand the colonial governments progressively “went native”. Think there’s even a big country started that way, name escapes me. Something about states ? And no, you can’t just nuke everyone back to the stone age if they rebel, because there’s no percentage in that. The point of conquest or colonization is to use the land, resources and local manpower for yourself. If you blow them up, then you’re just as much out of a conquest as you would have been had the colony freed itself, plus the cost of the nukes (although that’s already a sunk cost I suppose). As for nuking the rebellious scum just a widdle bit _pour encourager les autres_, I’m sure it’ll encourage them all right, but perhaps not the way you thought. “The beatings will continue until morale improves” is not a sound management technique, else Disney would use it :p. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/122 "2011-05-31T17:08:53Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The chain of command waits for your decision. Do you launch the nukes and turn enemy cities to glass, as is your duty under U.S. doctrine, or do you hold off content that you will not go to your grave with the blood of millions on your hands? I push the button without any further hesitation. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/123 "2011-05-31T17:31:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And no, you can’t just nuke everyone back to the stone age if they rebel, because there’s no percentage in that. In other words you _can_ just nuke everyone back to the stone age. There’s a world of difference between being stupid and being impossible when discussing a hypothetical where they’ve _already_ nuked people for stupid reasons. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/124 "2011-05-31T20:46:00Z")
First of all, something tells me that refusal in this scenario is not an option for the President, either because some degree of retaliation is automatic under certain circumstances, or because the other military and civilian heads of the armed forces would simply take the decision away if he tried. “Mr. President, the Russians have launched a full-scale nuclear first strike. We’re absolutely certain. The first detonations will occur within minutes.” "Gentleman, I have decided that the United States will forgo its vengen"_ **BLAM** _ “The President has mysteriously died! We must carry out his final order and launch our retaliatory strike.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/125 "2011-05-31T21:53:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > In other words you _can_ just nuke everyone back to the stone age. There’s a world of difference between being stupid and being impossible when discussing a hypothetical where they’ve _already_ nuked people for stupid reasons. What stupid reasons ? The OP didn’t specify any, just that a superpower (assumed so far to be heyday Soviet Russia) launched their missiles without warning. Vitrifying the US and neutering its ability to respond/nuke is not a stupid reason if you’re bent on conquering, say, China & the Middle East and don’t give a hoot about America proper. It’s insane, but it’s not stupid. Well, assuming you can count on the US not to retaliate in time of course. If it can it’s still not \*completely \*stupid but it’s even more insane and gamble-y. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/126 "2011-05-31T23:19:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > What stupid reasons? The OP didn’t specify any, just that a superpower (assumed so far to be heyday Soviet Russia) launched their missiles without warning. By the time launching a full-scale nuclear war on the United States stops being stupid, it’s not going to be a surprise to _anybody_. > [@](#): > > Vitrifying the US and neutering its ability to respond/nuke is not a stupid reason if you’re bent on conquering, say, China & the Middle East and don’t give a hoot about America proper. It’s insane, but it’s not stupid. > Well, assuming you can count on the US not to retaliate in time of course. If it can it’s still not \*completely \*stupid but it’s even more insane and gamble-y. Even if we draw this line between insanity and stupidity, you still just shot down your own argument. After all, if someone is insane enough to nuke the US as part of their plan for world domination, wouldn’t it be safe to assume they might also be insane enough to nuke people if they rebel? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/127 "2011-06-01T00:00:24Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Even if we draw this line between insanity and stupidity, you still just shot down your own argument. After all, if someone is insane enough to nuke the US as part of their plan for world domination, wouldn’t it be safe to assume they might also be insane enough to nuke people if they rebel? Insane enough ? Sure. But that would be a stupid thing to do, as outlined above. Two different, non antithetical attributes. You can be insane and pretty smart (e.g. John Nash). It would be more likely the insane mastermind would pull a Saddam and gas/chem attack the insurgents, but even that is contingent on the kind of stuff the oppressor is trying to get out of the rebelling colony. Crops for example don’t react well to toxic warfare. When all is said and done however, the one and best tool of control and oppression is still a grunt with a gun and a 'tude. But as has been said, those come in limited supplies and don’t work forever. You also assume that the rebellions would (or need to ?) happen soon after the original, insane nuclear attack. But the colonial empires took their sweet time cracking at the seams. For each ironcast, brass balled king of old there was a spoiled, inefficient mental weakling to succeed him as the kingdom crashed around them. It is in the nature of empires to crumble from within, eventually. In the grand scheme of things, one more tyrant and one more evil empire doesn’t really matter. Certainly doesn’t mandate turning 3/4th of the planet into a radioactive dustbowl to prevent it. Now \*that \*would be insane. ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/128 "2011-06-02T00:30:33Z")
If you turn the other cheek, you usually just get slapped on the other cheek. Crank up the adjustable yields, start throwing the MIRVs. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/129 "2011-06-02T03:26:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Tyrants aren’t immortal. Everything dies. Injustice never lasts, cannot last. It’s a temporary problem. I’m agreeing on this one, there is no way that the bulk of humanity will accept having every last freedom taken from them. People like having places like this where they can voice their opinions freely. Do you honestly think I’d let some Chairman Mao or Kim Jong Il wannabe tell me that I’m not allowed to post anything relating to individual freedoms and rights? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/130 "2011-06-02T04:07:48Z")
Dream scenario: I’d throw the switch on the **nuclear shield** that I’d been developing over the last term. When the enemy’s nuclear stock is depleted, and 95% of ours still remains operational at defcon 1, it’s time to talk about how their country becomes the 51st state of the US. ---
**Author:** ![FarmerChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/13edae/32.png) [@FarmerChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FarmerChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/131 "2011-06-02T04:17:25Z")
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfyZacLJQU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfyZacLJQU) hmm… i gotta say yes nuke back. However… im pretty sure we could shoot alot of those missles down i mean… remember when that chineese satalite was coming at the earth faster then an icbm can go… and we shot it with a laser… and the millitary didnt really want the press to catch wind of it, but they did… yea… i mean the navy has a working rail gun… we have crazy advanced weaopnry then no other country has/can afford. [Aegis BMD "Burnt Frost" Satellite Shoot-Down Documentary - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDqNjnUNUl8)… soo really… this is how it would happen… that idiot kim jong ill would try… send a few… they all get shot down… and then you have a real problem… they tried and failed… do you nuke them anyway? or carpet bomb/invade… and loose blood and treasure ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/132 "2011-06-02T05:36:55Z")
I would order the strike (a) because it would send a message to the country in question that they can’t launch nuclear weapons without consequences, (b) because it is what the voting public, to whom I am beholden, would want me to do, and © because, well, fuck 'em. Furthermore, I would try to ensure _maximum_ civilian casualties to send as strong and angry a message as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/133 "2011-06-02T06:00:15Z")
> [@FarmerChuck](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfyZacLJQU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfyZacLJQU) > hmm.. i gotta say yes nuke back. However… im pretty sure we could shoot alot of those missles down i mean.. remember when that chineese satalite was coming at the earth faster then an icbm can go… and we shot it with a laser.. and the millitary didnt really want the press to catch wind of it, but they did… yea.. i mean the navy has a working rail gun… we have crazy advanced weaopnry then no other country has/can afford. Are you genuinely this ignorant? Because virtually none of the claims you’ve made here are remotely factual. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![FarmerChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/13edae/32.png) [@FarmerChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FarmerChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/134 "2011-06-03T02:47:41Z")
umm watch those you tube links…we can shoot stuff down moving very fast… also the navy does have a working rail gun… ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/135 "2011-06-03T07:30:18Z")
> [@FarmerChuck](#): > > umm watch those you tube links..we can shoot stuff down moving very fast… also the navy does have a working rail gun.. The satellite interception to which you refer was the NROL-21 surveillance satellite, which failed to be deployed into an operational orbit. It was intercepted by a RIM-161 Standard Missile 3 fired from the _USS Lake Erie_ with propulsion and guidance enhancements; it was not a standard configuration item and the Standard Missile (-2 and -3) are intended to be theater ABM systems, not strategic systems suitable for use against an ICBM attack. The Airborne Laser (ABL) is a former USAF development program that is now managed by the Missile Defense Agency. It is not an operational system and there are significant fundamental issues with the suitability of this technology for strategic missile interception (thermal blooming, power generation, heat rejections, et cetera) that have not been resolved. ABL was not used for the aforementioned satellite interception. The USN is indeed working on the development of electromagnetic rail guns, but as an alternative to conventional combustion-based guns, not as a missile interception technology. This technology is currently estimated to be 15-20 years away from operational deployment and will require some advances in material science to be feasible for operational use. The United States currently fields and maintains one operational strategic ballistic missile defense system which the the Ground Based Mid-Course Defense (GMD) system. GMD has gone through some limited testing but is not intended to be a highly robust system against a strategic attack, i.e. it lacks features such as integrated C[sup]3[/sup]I and nuclear hardening, and is not designed to counter sophisticated countermeasures. It is billed as a system of limited capability intended to defend against a small scale attack by a “rogue nation” with relatively primitive delivery systems. Your post and opinions are not well-informed about the actual technologies that are extant and in development for ballistic missile defense. please make the effort to inform yourself on the topic before espousing broad opinions. There are plenty of authoritative information sources available on-line; aside from the MDA government site and the venerable Jane’s Information Group, there is also the Federation of American Scientists ([FAS.org](http://FAS.org)), Global Security ([globalsecurity.org](http://globalsecurity.org)), and the Claremont Institute’s Missile Threat (missile [threat.com](http://threat.com)), or you can go to [SpaceWar.com](http://SpaceWar.com) to get the Popular Science version. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579/136 "2011-06-03T13:07:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, order the strike. And then piss on a spark plug, in case that helps. I’d play ‘X’ in the center square. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-potus-a-nuclear-first-strike-is-inbound-do-you-authorise-the-second-strike/583579.md?page=6)