You're the POTUS. A nuclear first strike is inbound. Do you authorise the second strike?

That doesn’t make sense to me. Just because the US didn’t retaliate, is no indication than China won’t retaliate if the Soviets shoot at them next. A precedent needs a context - yes, if the US doesn’t retaliate then it would be a possible suggestion to shoot at the US again because they have shown that they won’t retaliate.

Since the US vanished the first time, that information is useless. Every MAD is a separate gamble. And if you want to go that way, seeing the US martyred might make the bystanders more determined to retaliate.

ETA2: not that it really matters either way. Even if the Soviets nuke GODDAMN EVERYONE!!!1!, then the Soviets still remain. Beyond their current evil mass murderingness, they’re still human beings. Their survival is more desirable than human extinction - they won’t be led by evil mass murderers forever.

Aren’t they strictly more likely to ? Fewer bombs = less chances of a nuclear winter. That doesn’t seem arbitrary to me.

That’s rather optimistic of you. But hey, feel free to gamble with the lives of billions of innocents ! :wink:

ETA (BTW, awesome username/post combo :slight_smile: )

The issue being whether you’re willing to order what amounts to mass murder of millions of innocents (granted, the ones who ordered the first strike aren’t - but the street-sweeper in Moscow or factory worker in St. Petersburg who are going to be incinerated likely are), and what the effects would be on the world in general if you did/didn’t.

I’m assuming an all-out nuclear exchange with a major power.

For my part, acting on pure instinct I’m ashamed to admit I’d probably let the nukes fly.

Your 99% of the human race assumption is arbitrary. But suppose that retaliation is only the difference between 10% and 12% of bystanders killed by fallout. That’s still a lot of people, but not compared to preventing a future nuclear exchange between India and China.

I assumed the OP’s hypothetical was not really about real-world stats and data re:nuclear war (since few people know about those, myself included) but more of an abstract, world-encompassing version of the following scenario: “A criminal encountered in a dark alley shoots you in the head before you can bring your own gun to bear. In the 5 seconds of consciousness you got left, do you kill him back ?”. That’s what it boils down to, isn’t it ?

Essentially I believe the OP wasn’t asking about real nuclear war, but the popular understanding of nuclear war where everybody dies (made more likely by the fact that, assuming we’re talking NATO vs. Warsaw Pact, it’s not just missiles from Moscow to Washington, but also all of their respective allies getting involved).

There are a number of fundamental misunderstandings in the o.p. and many of the follow-on responses. First of all, second strike capability isn’t the same as retaliatory counterattack launch-on-warning; second strike capability is the capacity to protect and maintain a force in reserve following receipt of an attack. Hardened silos, mobile launchers, and submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) are considered to provide second strike capability because they can be held in reserve to confirm both the source and extent of an attack, and provide a measure of time in which to collect information and make a rational judgement regarding a response. Second, while Assured Destruction (the “Mutual” was tacked on later as an attempt by critics at the Hudson Institute to ridicule the doctrine) formed the basis for certain decisions about development and deployment of the nuclear triad, including not constructing greater numbers of launchers and weapons based upon effective parity (i.e. at a given threshold you have enough overkill capability to assure destruction of your enemy, regardless of how many weapons he throws at you), AD was never official doctrine with regard to the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP), no called Contingency Plans (CONPLAN), and the essential tenets (perfect detection without false positives, perfect knowledge of opponent intent, rational actors, et cetera) of AD were never met by the United States and the Soviet Union at any time during the Cold War and arguably exist only in a utopian context, so the doctrine can hardly be credited with having “saved” humanity during that conflict, and indeed many of the systems set up to assure positive response in support of a Launch-On-Warning order had demonstrated flaws. (See the 1983 Petrov Incident for an unassailable demonstration of this.)

Nuclear strategist Herman Kahn poked fun at many of the essential implausibilities in deterrence theory in his lectures, which were largely the basis for Stanley Kubrick’s retooling of the serious Peter George novel Red Alert into the satirical Dr. Strangelove, or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb. The most vocal public proponent of systems deterrence theory and former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara (who served under both the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, including through the Cuban Missile Crisis) later admitted that deterrence theory didn’t work, nearly resulted in a number of close calls that could have led to extensive or complete nuclear exchange over miscommunications and misunderstandings, and that “The indefinite combination of human fallibility and nuclear weapons will lead to the destruction of nations.” The question of the o.p. serves to highlight the fragile reasoning of deterrence; that is, that threatening to use nuclear weapons is a bluff game that only works as long as no one is actually willing to throw down. It is a game where any call has every player holding the Dead Man’s Hand. Kubrick’s “Doomsday Device” (directly borrowed from Kahn) is both the logical extension of Assured Destruction–a “perfect” computer that can’t make a mistake and won’t hesitate to respond–and a demonstration of why the application is badly flawed. When General Turgidson complains, “Gee, I wish we had one of them Doomsday machines,” it underlies the absurdity, to wit that if anyone has such a device, regardless of who they are or what their intent may be, the entire world, including the holder, is held hostage to any whim of a despot with nothing to lose or undetected error in software or hardware of the system that may cause it to initiate attack automatically.

Some observation is due regarding nuclear winter claims as well. Understand that the basis for these claims is the assumption of uniform distribution across a dry surface covered with flammable material. (It is the combustion caused by fires resulting from the thermal pulse, not the heavier ejecta from the blasts themselves, that creates suspended material in the atmosphere.) The model used in supporting the TTAPS conclusions was a very primitive climate model that made a number of other simplifying assumptions including assuming purely dry deposition. The reality is that while a widespread nuclear exchange will no doubt result in regional and perhaps even global climate effects from suspended soot and particulates, this will be limited to at most a few years, not the decades of “winter”, and that the effect of released aerosol compounds on the upper atmosphere where effects will be more persistent are not well understood. It is likely that the Southern Hemisphere will only be lightly affected due to equatorial division of the atmospheric flows and the lack of significant targets.

Nonetheless, the o.p. presents an interesting question of ethics, to wit, even if an attack is certain and intended, is it appropriate to respond in such a manner as to kill millions of people who had no control over the attack? (Grumman’s argument to limit attacks only to the chain of command must be assumed to be not feasible; we can assume that the leaders will secure themselves in protected bunkers or mobile command posts to wait out the response, and then will use all remaining industry and war materiel to further whatever goals had them begin this attack.) Setting aside cultural and ideological specifics–for the purposes of this exercise, we’ll call ourselves the Orange Team, and our Opponents that Purple Team–it may seem that the ethical response is to accept martyrdom versus slaughtering millions of innocents, but if this is a truly unprovoked attack we have to assume either malfeasance or terminal incompetence on the part of the Purple Team, and that they may proceed to attack other nations or cultures as well as mop up any Orange Team protectorates and close allies. In this case we are ethically bound to respond in kind and destroy both their offensive capability and the infrastructure to support it (transportation, communication, production) as a necessary exercise in total war doctrine (i.e. that the populace is culpable in the effort if not the decision by supporting the production of weapons and all of the ancillary effort to maintain that capability). This is the “right” thing to do, although I have to agree with Czarcasm that this falls best in the description of “dead right”, and is of little solace to any survivors on either side.

All of this goes to point out that strategic weapons–nuclear, biological, chemical, and even conventional explosives and incendiaries used in a strategic bombing campaign–make a fiction out of any ethical “rules of war”. The capabilities of these weapons encourages their use by the Orange Team (before the Purple Team uses them on us) and yet the scale of damage that these weapons can do is beyond a single person’s comprehension. War becomes not the skillful exercise of discipline and tactical superiority that is portrayed heroically in film, but statistics and logistics in which both combatants and bystanders are just tick marks in a ledger, losses to be calculated against theoretical gains in strategic and political position.

In the situation posited by the o.p., there is no way for the respondent to realistically make an ethical decision given the time and knowledge constraints and conditionality of the scenario. He or she must simply respond as doctrine requires, and per the CONPLAN provisions that have been previously thought out and vetted by teams of experts. As a leader, to believe that one is more righteous in a off-the-cuff decision than a large team of professional planners who have spent a collective thousands of man-years pondering the threats and responses is the pinnacle of supreme arrogance, regardless of motives.

Stranger

Stranger, you take all the fun out of posting “Fuck yes! Nuke them, then bounce the rubble.” Especially since nobody has near the number of nukes we do. Nuke them, nuke their friends, nuke anybody they’ve talked to. Erase them from History.

I’d nuke people in the southern hemisphere as well, just out of spite.

Except the Aussies.

We’ll save Australia;
Don’t wanna hurt no kangaroo.
We’ll build an all-American amusement park there;
They’ve got surfing, too.

Massive retaliation, at least three times the estimated throw weight. Then kiss my ass good-bye. If I am the POTUS my last earthy act is not going to be refusing to defend the people and constitution of the United States.

Penguins too!

Who or what are these nuclear-capable “Soviets” that people are referring to? :confused:

Or is this a “historical what if?” question? :wink:

Hell yes, they started, they get what they friggin deserve.

I wouldn’t order a full-out nuclear retaliation. A targeted attack on some select cities where their nukes are stored should be done though. I wouldn’t want to plunge the world into a nuclear winter. I would probably authorize a nuke in some of their key weapon production cities and probably their capital if I’m assured that it would hamper their future ability to nuke someone, and then follow that up with authorization for conventional non-nuclear attacks.

I’m very disturbed that you feel that a war where a third of the human population survives (ie. the death of 4 billion people) is a better option than surrender

That’s not what he’s saying. Nobody’s saying it would be good, but you have the choice of plunging the world into a nuclear winter and needlessly adding hundreds of millions of more deaths to the total or simply letting a very mortal regime who’s leader’s not going to last, on average, more than 50 years rule the survivors. Think about it this way: if people are alive, there’s a chance of rebellion and winning. If they die in a war to prove a point, then there’s no hope

We are the flower of humanity and civilization. Undoubtedly the Soviets represent barbarism and totalitarianism, they must be destroyed if they destroy us for the welfare of the world. It is the best thing for the world.

No at worst I’d calculate it’d be two-thirds possibly little under a fifth largely concentrated in the belligrent countries, so the neutral countries (especially those in the Southern Hemisphere) can rebuild. Even if the US there will be pockets of civilization. And that would be better than Soviet/totalitarian world domination.

We survived Toba, Yellowstone, and Chixuclub, Earth can survive this. Even if 99% of humanity gets wiped out, 60-70 million humans can maintain at the least a basic pre-industrial civilization to be followed by recovery within a few centuries.

No it’d be saving humanity from totalitarian dictatorship.

Those who would not order a retalitory strike, I think quite frankly, expresses a dangerous sentiment for the Republic and its security and indeed for the security of Civilization itself.

The idea that we shouldn’t retaliate also leads to the idea that if you know you’re going to die you shouldn’t try to drag the murderers with you. :rolleyes:

Throwing around colorful language like “flower of humanity” isn’t an argument. What does that even mean? And who gave you the right to decide for them that it’s better if they’re dead in a war or live in such a world?

Where are you getting your calculations from?

“We” didn’t survive anything. Proto-humans survived Toba and Yellowstone. And the reigning lifeforms on the planet at the time of the Chixulub meteor impact died out. You are seriously saying that you’d rather humanity be nearly wiped out than have to endure you having to learn Russian?

Here’s another hypothetical for you: Mankind survived Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Napoleon, Pol Pot, and a few thousand years of inbred insane european monarchs. We can survive Russia ruling the globe for a cost less than nuking the planet back into the stone age

What security is there when civilization itself is wiped out and humanity has to start over?

Qin, I know you’re young and all, but think about what you’d be ordering. You’d seriously think that a few decades of Russian or totalitarian rule is WORST than having nuclear winter encircle the globe and kill off a great deal of life on this planet? You grew up in America and probably can’t fathom living under any other system but billions of people every day live under kings, dictators, and religious extremists just fine without thinking that suicide is a better option. Think about that

Would you feel the same if you had to kill a busload of innocent people to get to the murderer?

The same can be said of any war. There were undoubtedly many people in Germany, Japan, and Italy for instance who opposed their governments’ wars, yet we ended up in the end, sadly, harming many of them in our campaigns? How many anti-Nazis died at Dresden, or how many opponents of genocidal Bushidoism died at Hiroshima?

Simple reason. A lot of the nukes will get shot down, fail, be destroyed on the ground etc. and many will be exploded in high-priority targets at once thus sparing other areas.

Exactly. Primitives survived those great disasters, we- far more intelligent and advanced can survive it better,

We survived them by fighting massive wars against them, not letting them cut our throats.

What security is there when civilization itself is wiped out and humanity has to start over?

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Except it won’t destruction of civlization. It’ll be as others have said lead to a conventional war once both sides get past the nuke phase, and in addition if we don’t retaliate the Soviets will continue to bomb us.

You’d be killing millions of people who had nothing to do with it. The notion that masses of people can be collectively guilty for the actions of the few in authority is exactly the justification used by al Qaeda.

I would not of course delibrately target civilians or population centres. The priorities would be where nuclear missiles are, military bases, oil reserves, industrial centres, and the like. A better comparison would be with the Allied bombings of Germany in world War II>