# You're the Prime Minister of the UK. Do you scrap Trident? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572 "2016-01-19T14:24:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/21 "2016-01-20T20:06:15Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > I think his point was if you use them, i.e. launch them, then the point of having them in the first place - deterrence - has failed. Well, except for the fact that ISN’T the ONLY point. Blowing the fuck outa some asshole enemy has it’s own rewards. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/22 "2016-01-20T20:29:03Z")
My thinking, as a Brit myself, is that Britain does not need a nuclear deterrent. We are attempting to prevent other countries from developing their own nuclear weapons, and I think that disarming our own would be an important marker that it’s something we’re serious about. Joking aside, the fact that the French have them should not even be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/23 "2016-01-21T00:32:05Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > My thinking, as a Brit myself, is that Britain does not need a nuclear deterrent. Its true that the UK being the second country to voluntarily give up nuclear weapons (South Africa was the first), would be a powerful message. But unfortunately that message would be “you don’t need nuclear weapons as long as your best buddies with the US” rather than “you don’t need nuclear weapons.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/24 "2016-06-14T19:18:55Z")
I would retain Trident, and fund any necessary successor system. Having nuclear weapons means the UK preserves a valuable independent deterrent and an important place in the international community. Churchill once said that having nukes is “the price of admission to the adults’ table,” or words to that effect. These might also be of interest: > **[Vanguard-class submarine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard-class_submarine)** > > The Vanguard class is a class of nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) in service with the Royal Navy. The class was introduced in 1994 as part of the Trident nuclear programme, and comprises four vessels: Vanguard, Victorious, Vigilant and Vengeance, built between 1986 and 1999 at Barrow-in-Furness by Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering, now owned by BAE Systems. All four boats are based at HM Naval Base Clyde (HMS Neptune), 40 km (25 mi) west of Glasgow, Scotland. > Since the d... > **[Dreadnought-class submarine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Successor-class_submarine)** > > The Dreadnought class is the future replacement for the Vanguard class of ballistic missile submarines. Like their predecessors they will carry Trident II D-5 missiles. The Vanguard submarines entered service in the United Kingdom in the 1990s with an intended service life of 25 years. Their replacement is necessary if the Royal Navy is to maintain a continuous at-sea deterrent (CASD), the principle of operation behind the Trident system. > Provisionally named "Successor" (being the successor t... > **[Letters of last resort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_last_resort)** > > The letters of last resort are four identically-worded handwritten letters from the prime minister of the United Kingdom to the commanding officers of the four British ballistic missile submarines.\[A\] They contain orders on what action to take if an enemy nuclear strike has destroyed the British government, and has killed or otherwise incapacitated both the prime minister and their designated "second person", typically a high-ranking member of the Cabinet, such as the deputy prime minister or ... ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/25 "2016-06-14T19:42:11Z")
I voted to keep the subs, but I’m not even sure about that. It would depend on how effectively they could function as attack subs, whether they could launch non-nuke cruise missiles, etc. IIRC, the US took a couple of old boomers and rigged them up to carry masses of cruise missiles, maybe a hundred or more. That might be a reasonable use, providing the missiles would be non-nuke and maybe also for anti-shipping strikes. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/26 "2016-06-14T19:52:58Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > …IIRC, the US took a couple of old boomers and rigged them up to carry masses of cruise missiles, maybe a hundred or more. That might be a reasonable use, providing the missiles would be non-nuke and maybe also for anti-shipping strikes. Correct. See the second paragraph under “U.S. Navy” here: [Cruise-missile submarine - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile_submarine) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/27 "2016-06-14T20:03:47Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Correct. See the second paragraph under “U.S. Navy” here: [Cruise-missile submarine - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile_submarine) Thanks. I hadn’t recalled they could also be used to launch UAVs, presumably for surveillance, and other things like covert SEAL/SAS infiltration teams. That strike sme as a far more useful platform than a missile boat. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/28 "2016-06-15T00:15:18Z")
Corbyn was rightly mocked for suggesting keeping the subs, but without the missiles as running the world’s most expensive Uber rides. Keep the system as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/29 "2016-06-16T03:13:34Z")
If the United States were to sell the UK several SSBNs of the same type as its Ohio-class replacement, wouldn’t that be best, financially, for the US and the UK? The US gets to make money off of an arms sale, and the UK gets to save money because simply buying SSBNs from the US off-the-shelf would be cheaper than designing and building a new British SSBN. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/30 "2016-09-06T00:43:27Z")
Bumped. Parliament voted by a wide margin on July 19 to fund replacement SSBNs: [MPs vote to renew Trident weapons system - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36830923) ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/31 "2016-09-06T02:01:58Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Sending nuclear missile subs out without their missiles seems like about the stupidest idea likely to be heard this month. > > The linked BBC article says the motivation is to avoid putting a whole bunch of people out of a job - crepuscular thinking at best. The nuclear deterrent as a make work program? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572/32 "2016-09-06T02:05:23Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Its true that the UK being the second country to voluntarily give up nuclear weapons (South Africa was the first), would be a powerful message. But unfortunately that message would be “you don’t need nuclear weapons as long as your best buddies with the US” rather than “you don’t need nuclear weapons.” Seems reasonable. I have always thought the reason for US allies to have their own nuclear weapons was a suspicion that although the US might be fully ready to retaliate if Washington was nuked they might not be so inclined if London was. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youre-the-prime-minister-of-the-uk-do-you-scrap-trident/743572.md?page=1)