# Youth culture died a long time ago **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359 "2013-07-24T04:55:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/61 "2013-07-29T00:53:06Z")
> [@](#): > > With the caveat that I don’t really know what “youth culture” was like in the late 90s or before because I was either a little kid or not alive, as a 23 year old I feel like the concept of “culture” kind of died as any sort of identifiable homogenous entity, with distinct readily identifiable subcultures. There are still a few identifiable cliques and subcultures like hipsters, but in general I feel like especially since the internet took off that culture has had this weird thing where it simultaneously fragmented and homogenized all at once. > > While I’m sure that the silly cliques in movies have always been a bit of an oversimplified pastiche, I’ve even seen adults remark on some of the oddness of modern kids/young adults. I’ve never really seen “themed” cliques where everybody likes the same things, everything feels a lot more fluid. The star varsity volleyball player is also a D&D nerd, and the vapid sorority girl who only listens to the Billboard Top 40 is obsessed with Doctor Who, and the horror geek really like '50s Big Band music. > > Certainly there’s still a “mainstream culture” to a degree, and fads and trends and things that are identifiably more popular than other things, but it seems incredibly common for almost everybody to have three or four interests completely out of the mainstream, which I suspect is because our exposure to pop culture isn’t dictated by marketing in quite the same way anymore; meaning that what we’re exposed to isn’t limited to what we can find on a shelf in a store and the way we find new interests doesn’t come from the same TV stations and magazines. Because you can log onto the internet and suddenly there’s an entire forum devoted to your fascination with chewing ice or whatever. And Cracked got you really interested in Armenian dramas with a one-off joke, and finding more to watch was just a Youtube search away. > > Basically, rather than “fitting in” a subculture, people have a bunch of little fragmented interests and don’t really fit in anywhere, but also kind of fit in everywhere. Kind of a blessing and a curse. Well, in my neck of the woods kids are just like they were in 1990 - same type of people, same clubs, same clothes - not exactly the same but pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/62 "2013-07-29T05:46:10Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > I’m not talking about minor reshuffles of old stuff, a slightly different guitar amp, or a mohican that’s been cropped a few inches. I mean radically new, and I mean on a mass level. > > Example: metal - no great innovation since late 60’s, a bit of a speed up in the 80’s, but nothing really new. Plastering your hair down and wearing a chain on your britches doesn’t count. Essentially it’s been a stable form for about 50 years. No I wouldn’t count black metal or such as a great innovation, or that of anyone’s favourite band. Sorry. > > Same with rap: Anything really new for the last 30 years ? I mean really new ? On a mass level ? Nah. > I’d say rap was a radically new thing at the time, just like massive metal power chords may have been somewhat new in the mid late sixties. > > Same with everything else. Society has been too stable for radical change to come about. Depends on technology I guess so I would think that what will be radically new will be network based, direct to brain, implanted, google glass type stuff - because what else is there ? You appear to have a misguided idea of how change happens. In art, innovation is almost never a sea change. It’s almost always an incremental change. While one paradigm (good god, I hate that word) is dominant, there are always several groups running around trying to subvert it in different ways. When one successfully does, you can usually easily point at its predecessors. E.G.: when noise rock happened, it was certainly different from what came before. However, you could still point back at Can, The Velvet Underground, Suicide and Eno being their precursors. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Mass level popularity on the level of the Beatles or Elvis isn’t going to be happening anymore. The world of taste doesn’t work that way, and has been shifting away from it for 25 years at least. By the time I was a teenager, there just wasn’t a monolithic culture anymore. I don’t see why you’d think one would spring up today. Your complaint about rap/metal not changing is ludicrous. If the band isn’t popular enough to penetrate your fogey bubble, they don’t count? Sorry, you don’t get to be the guardian of good taste for the kids any more than I do. I’d bet you didn’t play either of these types of music. Hell, crazy metal guitars don’t even have the same number of strings as they used to. I’d provide links, but it seems you’d just dismiss them as not being important enough for you to consider. Enjoy your lawn. Aww hell, I can’t resist a wall of links. Here goes. Remember, I’m _old_, so the kids are probably listening to crazier things than even I know about. [Dan Deacon - Okie Dokie](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-eQoiI-JJI) This man wires together disparate hardware to get the sound and performance he wants. He and friends re-invented the player piano in order to do things like [Bulld Voice](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX99ahnUbcQ). I was honestly surprised by him when I found out about him in 2006. The closest thing to him that came before was Aphex Twin, and Deacon has a decidedly different attitude and sound. [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eMb_kh_glw) him operating his early rig on a local T.V. show, and [here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1io9CFfCJA) a clip of a more modern rig of his (pre player piano). Nobody performs that way live, not in the 60’s, not in the 70’s, not in the 80’s, not in the 90’s. He doesn’t crowd surf, he doesn’t stage dive. He sets up his equipment on the floor in front of the stage, and has the crowd press in. (This is spoilered, because Bob Log III has a _LOT_ of NSFW words for the fans live, and one is shot in a public restroom) [Bob Log III](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM28_JYZoLE) is a guitar genius/one man band. Not only is his shit [perfect](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A76NeaxNpfQ), [but](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqFE5fJ3xT4) he [rocks](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQmX4LzaDDU) [all](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsiv0ojonfU) [day](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU4ty_pn67o), [every](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CCYhFrgUJo) [day](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr7VRUSwD3w). Sure, others have played the blues, but none make it rock in a modern way the way he does. All the same, he certainly puts off a lot of rock and blues purists. Being a one-man-band, he has the ability to do stops and changes that would be literally _impossible_ for even a well-oiled band like James Brown’s band to do after the thousandth take in the studio, much less live. And well, the best example of the changes in metal over the last 20 years would be Dethklok. They’re a semi-fictitious band, but Brendan Small is well informed of the changes in metal over the last 20 years. It’s not like Metallica, it’s not like Ratt, it’s not like Napalm Death or even Queensryche. To be honest, if pressed, I could probably play any of those bands guitar parts for a cover band. I could maybe play the bass part from a Dethklok song if they turned it up enough for me to hear it. (links all spoilered, because, NSFW) [I Ejaculate Fire](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W35dyPTh6o) sounds nothing like Dokken, but George Lynch wishes he played those solos. Mmm, cookie monster wants [COFFEE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCDfRSmwsg4). Seriously, metal is kind of [crazy](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADyyQPN0o54) in a way it wasn’t before. It’s embraced its own [silliness](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOb-wQAp3Hk) to survive. If your complaint about Dethklok is that they’re not a “real” band, the real bands I hear from the metal shows on the community radio station are either far more extreme and/or complex. Kids have been paying to have these metal shows on for 25 years, at least, in my area. The shows are directly supported by donations of the listeners. However, the sound has changed, and the old shows were surpassed by the new ones that played the newer meta styles. Even stogy old surf rock has had it’s hair pulled. [Daikaiju](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-MktnXIz7U) has taken it to more complex, [crazy](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsWH6Hvk0ec) places. If your complaint about any of this is that it is derivative of art that came before, tough. Your heroes learned from someone, and their heroes learned from someone in turn. It’s when we reach the limits of what our teachers have to teach that we progress. It’s never by leaps and bounds, despite how it may appear to the viewer. All in all, you might want to learn a lesson from what is now a very old song, and [Kill yr Idols](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8LYpyXerDg). ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/63 "2013-07-29T05:51:02Z")
Yeah, a lot of this thread seems to be like arguing that humans are basically just prokaryotes because there’s an evolutionary chain connecting us and we didn’t just spring full formed out of the aether. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/64 "2013-07-30T00:44:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Mass level popularity on the level of the Beatles or Elvis isn’t going to be happening anymore. Mass popularity is still here - witness Gangnam Style - which, of course, is nothing innovative because youth culture is dead. > [@](#): > > In art, innovation is almost never a sea change. It’s almost always an incremental change. Yes, zombies shuffle along at a slow pace. > [@](#): > > Your complaint about rap/metal not changing is ludicrous. Lot of people don’t seem to know what the words ‘radical’, ‘minimal’ or ‘minor’ mean. I didn’t say it didn’t change, I just said the changes are negligible - look it up. > [@](#): > > And well, the best example of the changes in metal over the last 20 years would be Dethklok What? Are you mad ? That’s the best example of the lack of change that you could present me with. And no, having a few more or less strings doesn’t count as a big innovation 1) cos it isn’t that important 2) because it’s old hat. Including the experimental stuff that you list, and Sonic Pensioners - nope nothing new. Check these words out [Radical](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/radical) [Minimal](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/minimal) [minor](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/minor) ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/65 "2013-07-30T01:30:56Z")
So, you got nothing? Because I already knew what those words mean. If my examples have predecessors from 20 years ago that they haven’t made innovations on, gimme examples of them. In fact, give me one example of the innovative youth culture you hold so dear. I’m pretty I can use it to illustrate that youth culture shuffled along then at the same zombie pace it always has. ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/66 "2013-07-30T05:24:02Z")
Any change he has heard of doesn’t count because it is just like something that happened before. Any change he hasn’t heard of doesn’t count because it isn’t big enough to be “youth culture”. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/67 "2013-07-30T05:55:55Z")
Here’s the real question: did youth culture ever really exist? Or was it just a marketing creation that made products easier to sell? We want to ignore the fact Pat Boone was the second biggest act of the 50s (besides Elvis) because that doesn’t fit our notions of teenage rebellion. A lot of teenagers in the sixties were crew-cutted kids who supported us being in Vietnam, but those kids got written out of pop history because that doesn’t fit our “never trust anyone over 30” narrative. And even if they were, why do we assume edginess in your personal life means edginess in your musical tastes? There are many racist people who loved R&B and jazz; Solomon Burke remembered playing a concert booked by the Klan! And there were many countercultural icons (Dylan, the Byrds, Keith Richards, etc.) who absolutely loved country music, which in the 60s was only supposed to be loved by hippie haters. So just like what you want to like, and don’t care if your "youth culture " loved it. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/68 "2013-08-17T10:20:16Z")
> [@](#): > > If my examples have predecessors from 20 years ago that they haven’t made innovations on, gimme examples of them. In fact, give me one example of the innovative youth culture you hold so dear. I’m pretty I can use it to illustrate that youth culture shuffled along then at the same zombie pace it always has. Absolutely it was zombified 20 years ago. Fuck me if grunge wasn’t pretty much Black Sabbath with a few tweaks - they said so themselves. I was in bands, I had the style, it was nothing new. You still didn’t look up ‘radical’ yet. ---
**Author:** ![sylmar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@sylmar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylmar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/69 "2013-08-17T12:04:08Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Youth Culture killed my dog. > > Anyone? Youth culture \ ***burn** \*your dog … That being said, I have to admit I’m jealous of the ease with which Youtube/Guitar Hero/Amazon have helped the whipper snappers develop well rounded musical knowledge/taste… Took me decades to develop a working knowledge of artist outside of the contemporary top 40 play lists. Each new discovery was like finding a pearl after opening dozens of oysters that was yours alone. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359/70 "2013-08-17T12:38:19Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Absolutely it was zombified 20 years ago. Fuck me if grunge wasn’t pretty much Black Sabbath with a few tweaks - they said so themselves. I was in bands, I had the style, it was nothing new. I think that’s a fair statement. Grunge was less about being “something new” IMHO than it was a rejection of over-commercialized late 80s hair metal and a return to a more raw, garage sound of the 60s. I would agree that rap and electronica are new and distinctive in that they are a departure from traditional guitars and drums based rock. As for “youth culture”, I would say that I agree with you that it’s “dead” in the sense of being a form of counter-culture rebellion that shocked the older generations. As another poster pointed out, much of that came out of the “don’t trust anyone over 30”, civil rights movement, anti-Vietnam protests narrative of the 60s. Since about the 70s and 80s, “youth culture” has simply become a marketing campaign that target the tweens, teens and twenty-somethings demographic with various clothes, music, films, tv shows, electronic gadgets and other products. The actual music and clothes and whatnot change, but the business model is still the same. Make people under 30 feel like they are special and empowered and on the verge of making great changes in the world with their hopes and dreams during the best years of their life - and by the way, here are the artists, clothes and smartphones that define those hopes and dreams! Yes, there always has and always will be a “youth culture”. It’s just not as important as we want young people to think it is. I think LCD Soundsystem best describes this phenomenon. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6xG4oFny2Pk/maxresdefault.jpg "LCD Soundsystem - Losing My Edge (Official Video)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xG4oFny2Pk) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youth-culture-died-a-long-time-ago/664359.md?page=3)