# You've served your time-Now pay your bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446 "2018-09-16T16:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/21 "2018-09-17T01:02:26Z")
I had been given to understand that an incarcerated person is effectively a “ward of the state,” and that it is under this doctrine that the prison system is legally bound to provide food, shelter and medical care\* to inmates. It would not have occurred to me to suppose that wards of the state are in fact captive customers of the state. \*do the state penal systems also charge for medical treatment that prisoners receive? ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/22 "2018-09-17T01:13:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > We all pay the cost of the prisoner’s incarceration. That’s what taxes are. > > Many of us also feel we should cover the cost of the pedestrian who gets run over. That’s called universal health care. Bravo, Johnny! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/23 "2018-09-17T01:45:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In an ideal world, nobody would break any laws or commit any crimes. We’d have no need for police or courts or prisons. But in the real world, crimes are committed and we need these things. So why not put the expense of them on the people who are breaking the laws and creating the need for them? Because they can’t pay it. They’ve spent years not working because we wouldn’t let them, and they can’t get a high paying job because of their record. You take people who have committed crimes, who you hope will stop and be productive members of society, and place them under extreme financial pressure, to the point where it seems impossible to go straight. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/24 "2018-09-17T01:57:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Because they can’t pay it. They’ve spent years not working because we wouldn’t let them, and they can’t get a high paying job because of their record. You take people who have committed crimes, who you hope will stop and be productive members of society, and place them under extreme financial pressure, to the point where it seems impossible to go straight. I agree. It is extremely difficult for an ex-con to get a job in the first place. That often means their only choices are low paying and undesirable jobs. If they have an extra burden that their meager income is going to be further reduced to pay back the state, it’s that much less incentive to find legitimate work. At that point, they might as well find some sort of illegitimate work, which will typically pay better and won’t have anything garnished from it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/25 "2018-09-17T02:12:36Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > We all pay the cost of the prisoner’s incarceration. That’s what taxes are. > > Many of us also feel we should cover the cost of the pedestrian who gets run over. That’s called universal health care. Even if this is advocating for UHC, it’s somewhat misleading. Countries with UHC still have a concept of damages, and a dangerous driver can be liable for costs to both the victim and the state (both immediate and long-term costs). The difference is, if the perpetrator is not solvent enough to cover such costs, the state will still (like always) ensure the victim receives the care they require. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/26 "2018-09-17T08:46:08Z")
In an economic society where the working class is earning less than their parents did, and relative wages continue to spiral down, it is important that the working class retain a modicum of good spirits and job satisfaction. Thus an underclass, much more disadvantaged than the bulk of the working class, serves an important role. Many citizens can feel relatively fortunate, and even that they’re on the better side of the economic divide. Inequality by race is useful, of course, since most citizens will be proud that they belong to the advantaged race. But persecution of ex-cons, to whom most citizens will feel superior, is also very useful — especially since many are denied rights including the right to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/27 "2018-09-17T09:33:03Z")
So y’all have brough back debtor’s prison? Did you miss it or something? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/28 "2018-09-17T12:20:07Z")
In fact, this is **much worse** than debtor’s prison. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/29 "2018-09-17T12:48:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [This is the title of a recently released article](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-prison-strike-labor-criminal-justice_us_5b9bf1a1e4b013b0977a7d74) concerning the debt prisoners can acquire while being prisoner-a debt that cannot be paid while in prison because, well and > > The article further states that inmates are charged for their own incarceration in 49 states, and in 46 of those states failure to pay puts you back in prison. It gets even worse in the 20 states where probation and parole are privatized: > In my opinion this “system” is wrong-it keeps people in debt and increases recidivism. > What do you think of the current system as it stands? Is the reason prisons get away with paying far below minimum wage because room and board is deducted? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/30 "2018-09-17T13:01:12Z")
The reason is because it’s considered part of their punishment. From the 13th amendment: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, **except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,** shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/31 "2018-09-17T13:18:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So why not put the expense of them on the people who are breaking the laws and creating the need for them? Because they have no money. Let’s think this through: 1. The state demands money. 2. The prisoner has no money. 3. The prisoner must earn money. 4. There is no money in jail. Seems pretty clear to me. If your goal is to recover your expenses, putting the prisoner in a place where they cannot earn money is the least effective way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/32 "2018-09-17T13:31:38Z")
This isn’t materially different from the “bullet fee” reportedly charged in China to the family of executed prisoners, to reimburse the state for the cost of execution. And as repugnant. We pay taxes to maintain law and order. The prisoner has no alternative - he is not choosing to be incarcerated. The run-over pedestrian is right to demand restitution. He has no choice but to be a run-over pedestrian, the consequences of this are rightly laid at the feet of the runner-over. But the state can choose not to incarcerate. We as society have chosen that certain crimes come with incarceration as punishment, and we as society pay taxes to make that happen. If we feel financial consequences are in order for certain crimes, we can (and do) add fines as consequences for certsin crimes. In my book, if peeing in a swimming-pool were to be punishable by 5 days incarceration, at the end of which the pool-pisser were charged $1000 to recover the cost of incarceration, that is wrong. If the same offense came with 5 days plus a $2000 fine, then that is, well, just fine. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/33 "2018-09-17T13:35:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not really as outrageous as it sounds when you think about it. > > If somebody is driving too fast and runs a pedestrian over, wouldn’t you say it’s reasonable to expect them to pay for the associated medical expenses? A person who does something wrong should be expected to pay the financial costs for the consequences of their wrong doing. > > So if somebody is driving too fast, gets arrested and convicted, why isn’t it reasonable to expect them to pay for the associated law enforcement expenses? That person did the same wrong as the first person. Don’t they have the same obligation to cover the costs of the consequences? > > Does it suck to go into debt for all of those costs? Yes, it does. But the costs are real; prisons cost money to operate and somebody has to pay for them. So should it be the criminal who broke the law and created the necessity of imprisonment? Or his next-door neighbour, who never broke any laws? > > In an ideal world, nobody would break any laws or commit any crimes. We’d have no need for police or courts or prisons. But in the real world, crimes are committed and we need these things. So why not put the expense of them on the people who are breaking the laws and creating the need for them? But let’s say I charge things on my credit card that I cannot afford. If I keep doing this, there comes a point where I cannot pay it back. Society allows me a fresh start through bankruptcy. Is this fair? Why should all of the other credit card customers pay a higher interest rate because I cannot manage my spending? Also, many people who injure others are judgment proof, meaning that the injured party never recovers. Is that fair? I tend to agree with you: It is not right that if someone scrapes together a little bit of money and is able to own a house or a car or put some money in the bank that he or she is now fully responsible for everything and will lose it all if something bad happens, while those who simply check out of society can get away with floating under the radar. But some mercy has to be tempered with it. We don’t want people living “off paper” and being part of the ever increasing underground economy (working under the table, selling drugs, etc.). There should be a reasonable way of getting people back on their feet with the tools to be able to contribute to society. If step one is getting placed in handcuffs and going to jail, not many people will take that first step. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/34 "2018-09-17T13:54:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > The reason is because it’s considered part of their punishment. From the 13th amendment: > > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, **except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,** shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. But is it? Did their sentence say incarceration + fine, or just incarceration? And yes, it is a fine. They have no choice but to pay it, and that makes it a fine. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/35 "2018-09-17T14:21:28Z")
That post was a response to the one above it, asking about prisoner pay. I have no idea how that clause relates to the fines being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/36 "2018-09-17T15:41:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In my opinion this “system” is wrong-it keeps people in debt and increases recidivism. You seem to be under the assumption that this is a bug rather than a feature. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/37 "2018-09-17T15:45:10Z")
Oh yeah, it’s definitely intentional. The American prison system is a business and they only make money when people are incarcerated. The folks who run the prisons (and the politicians in their pockets) have no interest whatsoever in reducing recidivism. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/38 "2018-09-17T17:48:17Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Oh yeah, it’s definitely intentional. The American prison system is a business and they only make money when people are incarcerated. The folks who run the prisons (and the politicians in their pockets) have no interest whatsoever in reducing recidivism. That’s not the important part at all. They have a massive interest in encouraging first offenses and in encouraging worse offenses that get longer sentences. The jail owners ARE ORGANIZED CRIMINALS, not just “not interested in reducing recidivism” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/39 "2018-09-17T18:26:48Z")
You guys have a very false picture of the American prison system. Private prisons don’t run it. They represent only a small percentage of the overall prison system (about eight percent). Twenty-three states don’t even have a single private prison. I’m not saying it isn’t an issue; privately owned prisons are generally more poorly run than government owned prisons. But if you’re talking about the general issue of imprisonment in America, you need to look at what’s happening in the ninety-two percent of prisons that are being run by the government. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/40 "2018-09-17T18:28:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But is it? Did their sentence say incarceration + fine, or just incarceration? > > And yes, it is a fine. They have no choice but to pay it, and that makes it a fine. Yes, the payments are included in their sentence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446.md?page=3)