# You've served your time-Now pay your bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446 "2018-09-16T16:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/41 "2018-09-17T18:39:23Z")
[More on Criminal Justice Debt.](http://www.icjia.state.il.us/articles/the-cost-of-justice-the-impact-of-criminal-justice-financial-obligations-on-individuals-and-families) > [@](#): > > The inability to pay these CJFOs can result in the following court sanctions: > > -Increased court costs, fees, or fines. > -Incarceration for failure to pay. > -Suspension of individuals’ driver’s license. > -Increased time on correctional supervision or unsuccessful termination from supervision. > -Interest accrual and/or additional monetary assessment by private debt collectors. > -Liens, wage garnishment, and tax rebate interception. > -Barriers to securing criminal records sealing or expungement. > -Subsidized commissary among incarcerated to pay jail or prison fees. In addition, > [@](#): > > Criminal justice debt is unique in that it cannot be discharged through bankruptcy (11 U.S. Code § 523). Interest accrues on CJFO debts that go unpaid, regardless of whether the individual was convicted. Credit scores are impacted, which affects car and home ownership, and employment prospects (if employers use credit checks to screen applicants). What is funny is that if you are a lifer, you don’t have to worry about any of this. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/42 "2018-09-17T18:39:39Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Because they have no money. > > Let’s think this through: > > 1. The state demands money. > 2. The prisoner has no money. > 3. The prisoner must earn money. > 4. There is no money in jail. > > Seems pretty clear to me. If your goal is to recover your expenses, putting the prisoner in a place where they cannot earn money is the least effective way to do it. Where do you get this idea that poor people=criminals? Most poor people aren’t criminals. Most criminals aren’t poor. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/43 "2018-09-17T18:41:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Where do you get this idea that poor people=criminals? > > Most poor people aren’t criminals. Most criminals aren’t poor. The criminals that are most impacted by Criminal Justice Debt are poor. They are they ones that pay most of it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/44 "2018-09-17T19:34:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You guys have a very false picture of the American prison system. Private prisons don’t run it. They represent only a small percentage of the overall prison system (about eight percent). Twenty-three states don’t even have a single private prison. Private profits are not the only reason one can think of to support keeping a disproportionally non-white-minority population locked up, working without payment and with no right to vote, forever. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/45 "2018-09-17T20:32:19Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > The prisoner has no alternative - he is not choosing to be incarcerated. Seriously? They chose to be incarcerated by committing the crime. There’s an old adage: If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime. How hard is it to go through life without committing a felony? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/46 "2018-09-17T20:35:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Where do you get this idea that poor people=criminals? > > Most poor people aren’t criminals. Most criminals aren’t poor. You’re joking, right? According to Bureau of Justice statistics: “We found that, in 2014 dollars, incarcerated people had a median annual income of $19,185 prior to their incarceration, which is 41% less than non-incarcerated people of similar ages… Not only are the median incomes of incarcerated people prior to incarceration lower than non-incarcerated people, but incarcerated people are dramatically concentrated at the lowest ends of the national income distribution.” 57% of incarcerated men - and a stunning 72% of women - had incomes of less than $22,500. [Prisons of Poverty: Uncovering the pre-incarceration incomes of the imprisoned | Prison Policy Initiative](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html) So, yes, most criminals are poor. But that’s not the point. The _point_ is that those criminals who happen to be poor get locked into a cycle of repeated incarceration because their poverty makes it almost impossible to meet their obligations (eg fines, bail bond, legal fees) etc, and being incarcerated makes their poverty worse. 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, so if you have thousands of dollars in the bank to pay for unexpected fines and legal fees, you are doing better than most. Rich criminals, meanwhile, easily escape the trap because they can afford to pay their fines, buy better lawyers, make bail, and find new employment after their punishment is over. The criminal justice system is designed in such a way that it repeatedly victimizes the poor and thereby fills yet more jail cells in a cycle most of them cannot escape. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/47 "2018-09-17T20:47:49Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Seriously? They chose to be incarcerated by committing the crime. > > There’s an old adage: > > If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime. > > How hard is it to go through life without committing a felony? :dubious: Do you want ex-cons to be contributing members of society, or do you want to throw hurdles at them until they eventually end back up in jail? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/48 "2018-09-17T21:47:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you want ex-cons to be contributing members of society, or do you want to throw hurdles at them until they eventually end back up in jail? No one “ends up” in jail, except by their own volition. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/49 "2018-09-17T22:06:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No one “ends up” in jail, except by their own volition. If we define volition broadly enough and assume all citizens have a knowledge of law as comprehensive as yours, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/50 "2018-09-17T22:16:51Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No one “ends up” in jail, except by their own volition. Now that’s plain silly an assertion to make, on its face. Forget about all the factual objections one could make, the proofs to the contrary and anecdotes one could dig up ; but you’re saying that the justice system is absolutely perfect and never puts innocents behind bars, ever. Which is a laughable position, of course. Then once released, what would you suggest is the recourse of an individual who cannot be hired due to their being an ex-con (or can only be hired in dead end, low wage bullshit jobs) who cannot both pay their bills and pay the fines \*\*Czarcasm \*\*brought up ? How does that person not end up in jail, and what the fuck does their volition or lack thereof has to do with any of it ? Should they, like Donald Trump wants to, just print money to get out of debt ? Shit, that’s sort of illegal to do if you’re poor too, isn’t it ? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/51 "2018-09-18T01:03:41Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No one “ends up” in jail, except by their own volition. Did you read [the Ferguson report](https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf) (warning, pdf)? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/52 "2018-09-18T02:11:59Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If we define volition broadly enough and assume all citizens have a knowledge of law as comprehensive as yours, maybe. It doesn’t take a comprehensive knowledge of the law to know not to kill, maim, rape, or rob people. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/53 "2018-09-18T02:37:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It doesn’t take a comprehensive knowledge of the law to know not to kill, maim, rape, or rob people. I don’t believe these crimes are related to the vast majority of arrests or incarcerations so… what are you getting at? Most people get arrested for innocuous things, certainly not murder, rape or robbery. Just checked, and yeah: [Source](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21). If you don’t like arrests, consider prison population by crime: [Source](https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp). Petty larsony is a pretty big one, but other than that, other charges dwarf your list by a significant margin. And drug related charges are the big prison ticket item. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/54 "2018-09-18T04:06:38Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It doesn’t take a comprehensive knowledge of the law to know not to kill, maim, rape, or rob people. You’ve done that one already. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/55 "2018-09-18T05:50:29Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > I don’t believe these crimes are related to the vast majority of arrests or incarcerations so… what are you getting at? Most people get arrested for innocuous things, certainly not murder, rape or robbery. > > Just checked, and yeah: [Source](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21). If you don’t like arrests, consider prison population by crime: [Source](https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp). > > Petty larsony is a pretty big one, but other than that, other charges dwarf your list by a significant margin. And drug related charges are the big prison ticket item. Your cite is about incarceration, not prison time. The vast majority of prisoners have committed a felony, which does not include petty larceny. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/56 "2018-09-18T11:06:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Your cite is about incarceration, not prison time. The vast majority of prisoners have committed a felony, which does not include petty larceny. Again I ask: _Once they have served their time_, is it your desire that they become useful members of society, or do you want hurdles put in front of them so that it is likely they will return to prison? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/57 "2018-09-18T11:27:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You guys have a very false picture of the American prison system. Private prisons don’t run it. They represent only a small percentage of the overall prison system (about eight percent). Twenty-three states don’t even have a single private prison. > > I’m not saying it isn’t an issue; privately owned prisons are generally more poorly run than government owned prisons. But if you’re talking about the general issue of imprisonment in America, you need to look at what’s happening in the ninety-two percent of prisons that are being run by the government. Private prison contracts are worth billions of dollars a year - it’s not like they’re small-time contractors with no influence over local politicians. In 2016 there were [128,000](https://www.sentencingproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Private-Prisons-in-the-United-States.pdf) inmates in private prisons. That may be a small percentage of America’s total inmate population but still [more than most countries.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm) Meanwhile, the prison-industrial complex doesn’t stop at fully privatized prisons. There are billions more dollars going to companies which provide everything from healthcare to jumpsuits to commissary services to electronics - all of whom have a vested interest in maintaining a robust inmate population. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/58 "2018-09-18T12:50:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Your cite is about incarceration, not prison time. The vast majority of prisoners have committed a felony, which does not include petty larceny. At this point either you’re just fooling around or you are so far gone that you can’t tell you just completely changed your argument. Prison time has literally **nothing** to do with any of your prior statements. This is the most bizzare goal post shift I have _ever_ seen attempted. You claimed people volunteer for prison, and that most criminals are in for rape, murder or robbery. You pulled that out of your keester and the actual government statistics on why people are imprisoned say you’re full of hookum. Drug charges are what line our prisons at 46% as per that federal study, vastly more than any other category and almost more than all others combined, not violent offenses, and no one gets into drugs with the _intent_ to go to prison. Your statements we’re factually wrong, and continuing to argue them or that they we’re any approximation of reality makes you look silly. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/59 "2018-09-18T19:11:46Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Seriously? They chose to be incarcerated by committing the crime. No they didn’t. They were hoping to get away with it. They didn’t choose to get caught, they got caught. If they “chose” to be incarcerated, can they choose to leave? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/60 "2018-09-18T20:04:05Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Your statements we’re factually wrong, and continuing to argue them or that they we’re any approximation of reality makes you look silly. No, you are the one that is looking silly. You do know the difference between arrests/jail/prison, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446.md?page=4)