# You've served your time-Now pay your bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446 "2018-09-16T16:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/81 "2018-09-20T16:00:12Z")
Thanks to the OP, I’ve got this stupid pop tune going through my head. \*You’ve served your time, now pay your bill You owe us for that tasty prison swill If you received our letter saying jail time isn’t free Just write the state a check and make it payable to me Whoa, mail in what you owe us for your room and board If you can’t pay it all, send what you can afford If we don’t see some money from you right away You’ll be back in the pen Serving time again Don’t put the blame on me If you do the crime you know you’ve got to Pay the fee\* \*no apologies to Tony Orlando and Dawn. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/82 "2018-09-20T17:31:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, I was just told by a straight-up lawyer that when the punishments that follow from a crime are read off my a judge, they don’t include the extra fees - either the court fees or the prison fees. Which seems like a pretty damned clear statement that they’re not part of the punishments that follow from the crime committed. > > I was asked whether I thought it would help if the court actually listed the full range of potential fines they would levy up the poor sucker who had stepped before their crosshairs. I said yes - if nothing else, at least I wouldn’t have such an obvious, simple argument to show that no indeedy, these extra punishments don’t fit the crime. (They’re one size fits all!) No, I’m talking about the part where you said being punished is a crime. What do you suggest we do with people who commit murder or rape? Or even people who steal? Do you think we should just let them go because punishing them for what they did would be wrong? I know people like to say “Oh, we should rehabilitate these people so they don’t commit crimes any more.” That’s a great idea - but do you have any suggestions of how to do that? The reality is that rehabilitation is the core of the prison system. It always has been. Prisons were invented as a means of rehabilitation. Prisons spend more money on rehabilitation than they spend on security. Saying you think prisons should try to rehabilitate people is like saying you think hospitals should try to make people healthier or schools should try to make people smarter. But even after a couple centuries of trying, we still haven’t found a reliable form of rehabilitation. We keep developing new programs and trying them out. But nobody has found something that will reliably turn a criminal into a non-criminal. The only thing that works is when the criminal decides on his own that he doesn’t want to commit crimes any more. All the rest of us can do is point him in that direction. But most criminals don’t choose to change. So what do you do with the people who are committing crimes? Just live with the crimes? Give them a public whipping like they used to do before there were prisons? Exile them to a faraway colony? Or separate the criminals from everyone else so regular people aren’t victims? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/83 "2018-09-20T17:36:37Z")
I wouldn’t pay. What are they going to do, put me in jail for free some more? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/84 "2018-09-20T17:40:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The reality is that rehabilitation is the core of the prison system. It always has been. Prisons were invented as a means of rehabilitation. Prisons spend more money on rehabilitation than they spend on security. Can you back any of this up? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/85 "2018-09-20T17:53:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, I’m talking about the part where you said being punished is a crime. So you were aggressively criticizing the sarcasm, then. Also I’ll note that my sarcasm was meant to criticize the extra fees incurred due to being in jail, not the fact that we put people in jail at all. I’m super-cool with people being jailed in response to crimes. However there’s a difference between the following two punishments: 1. We’re gonna lock you in a box for twenty years. 2. We’re gonna lock you in a box for twenty years, and then bill you tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege. In my opinion, if you tell a dude that he’s getting punishment 1, you shouldn’t turn around and slap him with punishment 2. And it’s not just that that’s a sly stealth increase in punishment; I believe that when the punishments are determined the people choosing the punishment (either the judge or earlier legislators) don’t generally think about the additional fees when they decide what punishments are appropriate for specific crimes. In other words the people determining the appropriate punishment for the crime say punishment 1 - and then punishment 2 happens anyway. (I’ll clarify here that I’m mostly talking about the prison fees mentioned by the OP; judges are obviously aware of some or all court fees.) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/86 "2018-09-20T18:15:23Z")
Let’s unpack this a bit. Each state has different regulations or rules on what inmates can be charged for during their incarceration. According to the Brennen Center for Justice, almost all states have some provision for charging inmates. In some cases it is limited to the inmates ability to pay. In some cases it’s limited to reimbursement of medical fees. In some cases it’s limited to reimbursement from funds that the inmates earn while incarcerated. There’s no clear standard policy and some might argue that some policies are fair while some others are less fair. IMHO, blanket policies of charging a daily fee to inmates like the OP described in the state of Florida, is grossly unfair, and appears to be the most egregious of these types of policies instituted by states. But the bigger issue is the inconsistency of sentencing across crimes. Yes, I think that convictions of poor non-white drug offenders result in a disproportionate amount of jail time compared to other criminal convictions. Primarily due to over-zealous prosecutors looking to build their case rate, etc. Begin to solve this problem, then the problem highlighted by the OP becomes lessened. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/87 "2018-09-20T18:45:07Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > But the bigger issue is the inconsistency of sentencing across crimes. Yes, I think that convictions of poor non-white drug offenders result in a disproportionate amount of jail time compared to other criminal convictions. Primarily due to over-zealous prosecutors looking to build their case rate, etc. Begin to solve this problem, then the problem highlighted by the OP becomes lessened. For the record, I’m never impressed by the “forget that problem, let’s talk about this problem instead” argumentative approach. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/88 "2018-09-20T19:32:26Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > For the record, I’m never impressed by the “forget that problem, let’s talk about this problem instead” argumentative approach. Just sayin’. Well, at least your record is up to date. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/89 "2018-09-20T20:25:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The reality is that rehabilitation is the core of the prison system. It always has been. Prisons were invented as a means of rehabilitation. Prisons spend more money on rehabilitation than they spend on security. In the US ? Are you high ? Hell, anywhere, really - but _in the US ?!_ ---
**Author:** ![Textual\_Innuendo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@Textual\_Innuendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Textual_Innuendo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/90 "2018-09-22T14:23:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The more realistic part of me, of course, sighs and concedes we’re all fucked and only have the illusion of rights and justice. I’m putting down the prediction now - within 15 years the US will either have single-payer healthcare, or we will have mandatory organ confiscation and sale upon hospitals and prisons treating indigent patients. Guess which one I’d actually bet on? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/91 "2018-09-22T16:24:20Z")
> [@Textual\_Innuendo](#): > > I’m putting down the prediction now - within 15 years the US will either have single-payer healthcare, or we will have mandatory organ confiscation and sale upon hospitals and prisons treating indigent patients. > > Guess which one I’d actually bet on? That we all die as we fall into the massive gap of the excluded middle. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/92 "2018-09-22T18:19:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you back any of this up? Yes, I said it. I really do know a lot about this subject. I worked in prisons for three decades. And because it was my job, I’ve always had an interest in the subject and have read widely on its history and practices. So my knowledge extends beyond just my personal experience. I know how prisons work and what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/93 "2018-09-22T18:23:42Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In the US ? Are you high ? Hell, anywhere, really - but _in the US ?!_ Sure, the first prisons were build as part of the Pennsylvania System. You are aware of the Pennsylvania System, right? And the Auburn System and the Elmira System and the Irish System? As an expert on the subject of rehabilitation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/94 "2018-09-23T01:09:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, I said it. > > I really do know a lot about this subject. I worked in prisons for three decades. And because it was my job, I’ve always had an interest in the subject and have read widely on its history and practices. So my knowledge extends beyond just my personal experience. I know how prisons work and what they do. Then you, of all people, should know where to find the proper cites for your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/95 "2018-09-23T02:44:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then you, of all people, should know where to find the proper cites for your claims. I’m saying I am a cite. You can accept that or not as you wish. Where does your knowledge on this topic come from? From reading the newspaper article you linked to in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/96 "2018-09-23T03:05:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m saying I am a cite. You can accept that or not as you wish. “I am my own cite?”, in _this_ forum? :rolleyes: edited to add: In this forum, you are not your own site-you are an anonymous source of opinion until you show otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/97 "2018-09-23T05:53:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In this forum, you are not your own site-you are an anonymous source of opinion until you show otherwise. I’ve been a regular poster on this site since 1999. If people choose to believe I’ve been lying all this time, I’m not going to bother trying to convince them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/98 "2018-09-23T05:58:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve been a regular poster on this site since 1999. If people choose to believe I’ve been lying all this time, I’m not going to bother trying to convince them. I am sure you are an excellent source of information pertaining to your personal experiences in your field…but that’s as far as it goes. If you want to make broad declarations about the prison system as a whole(which you have), cites would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/99 "2018-09-23T14:08:24Z")
I spent a few minutes searching for the the original “my post is my cite” by Aldebaran but couldn’t dig it up. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446/100 "2018-09-23T16:09:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am sure you are an excellent source of information pertaining to your personal experiences in your field…but that’s as far as it goes. If you want to make broad declarations about the prison system as a whole(which you have), cites would be nice. I guess I missed how we weren’t making broad declarations about the prison system as a whole without cites in this thread. > [@elbows](#): > > It’s almost like America _ISN’T_struggling with the ongoing disaster of ‘for profit’, medicine. > > Like, it’s going so well, let’s introduce a profit motive to the prison system! > > (For profit prisons must be kept to a high capacity or the state pays million dollar penalties!) > > ‘For profit’ police and fire services cannot be for off, I should think. > > People think it’s just the under class, the truly disenfranchised that are being victimized. But that could change. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not even about the revenue, it is about preventing people from rejoining society as productive members. The sentencing guidelines are not enough, people need to be punished further, and forever, for their crimes. Serving time for your crime is not enough punishment, your life needs to be ruined. You can never be allowed to succeed at anything. > > You can find yourself starting down this path simply by picking up one violation that you cannot afford to pay. Got a $200 speeding ticket, and don’t have the cash to cover it? Well, that’s fine, because now there are hundreds of dollars more in penalties to incentivize you to pay it. > > What’s that, increasing the financial penalty isn’t enough to squeeze blood from a stone? Then we should also restrict your freedom, charging you for that service as well, that’ll make you pay up. > > Even those who have committed crimes that are deserving of some level of incarcerative punishment should be allowed to move on with their life once they have demonstrated repentance and repayed society with their time. Now, they are being asked to repay society’s taking away of their time with money. > > If inmates are allowed to choose their housing and accommodations, choose their probation or parole services, and decide which ones best meats their needs along with their financial capability, then sure. If an inmate wants a double sized cell with no roommate, then they can pay extra for that. If a parolee wants a P.O. who will make housecalls, rather than having to go to to the P.O., then they can pay extra for that. > > The housing and services that are mandated by the justice system, however, should not be charged. > > If that means that the criminal justice system isn’t as profitable to private interests as it currently is, that’s a feature, not a bug. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > We all pay the cost of the prisoner’s incarceration. That’s what taxes are. > > Many of us also feel we should cover the cost of the pedestrian who gets run over. That’s called universal health care. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > For one thing, does this kind of retribution just increase costs for society at large? Putting ex-cons out into society with no reformation, education and loaded with debt is a recipe for them to end up homeless or involved in crime again, which increases costs for society at large. > > Also a lot of us are cynical about ‘personal responsibility’ since it only applies for people who aren’t rich and powerful. Powerful companies generally do not have to pay for the damage they cause society at large. Polluters do not have to pay for the cost of pollution. Financial institutions do not have to pay for the damage from reckless behavior. But some lower middle class worker who gets into a car accident does. This mentality that the rich can do whatever they want but everyone else has to live in a brutal, draconian system isn’t appealing to most of us. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Jails being a for-profit business NECESSARILY means that jail owners are encouraging crime. They are living off the avails of crime, if that terminology is used in the US. > > In other words, owning a jail is not at all far from aiding and abetting. > [@pool](#): > > It’s a shame in this country how one bad mistake snowballs into the ruination of your life and impossibility of gainful employment for some. > [@JB99](#): > > Can we just admit that we are criminalizing poverty? > [@Scumpup](#): > > Huh…and I’m a crank for distrusting LE and the justice system in general. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Because they can’t pay it. They’ve spent years not working because we wouldn’t let them, and they can’t get a high paying job because of their record. You take people who have committed crimes, who you hope will stop and be productive members of society, and place them under extreme financial pressure, to the point where it seems impossible to go straight. > [@filmore](#): > > I agree. It is extremely difficult for an ex-con to get a job in the first place. That often means their only choices are low paying and undesirable jobs. If they have an extra burden that their meager income is going to be further reduced to pay back the state, it’s that much less incentive to find legitimate work. At that point, they might as well find some sort of illegitimate work, which will typically pay better and won’t have anything garnished from it. > [@Mijin](#): > > In fact, this is **much worse** than debtor’s prison. > [@Isosleepy](#): > > This isn’t materially different from the “bullet fee” reportedly charged in China to the family of executed prisoners, to reimburse the state for the cost of execution. And as repugnant. We pay taxes to maintain law and order. The prisoner has no alternative - he is not choosing to be incarcerated. > > The run-over pedestrian is right to demand restitution. He has no choice but to be a run-over pedestrian, the consequences of this are rightly laid at the feet of the runner-over. But the state can choose not to incarcerate. We as society have chosen that certain crimes come with incarceration as punishment, and we as society pay taxes to make that happen. If we feel financial consequences are in order for certain crimes, we can (and do) add fines as consequences for certsin crimes. > > In my book, if peeing in a swimming-pool were to be punishable by 5 days incarceration, at the end of which the pool-pisser were charged $1000 to recover the cost of incarceration, that is wrong. If the same offense came with 5 days plus a $2000 fine, then that is, well, just fine. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Oh yeah, it’s definitely intentional. The American prison system is a business and they only make money when people are incarcerated. The folks who run the prisons (and the politicians in their pockets) have no interest whatsoever in reducing recidivism. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > That’s not the important part at all. They have a massive interest in encouraging first offenses and in encouraging worse offenses that get longer sentences. The jail owners ARE ORGANIZED CRIMINALS, not just “not interested in reducing recidivism” > [@Kobal2](#): > > Private profits are not the only reason one can think of to support keeping a disproportionally non-white-minority population locked up, working without payment and with no right to vote, forever. My apologies for so badly misreading the tone of the thread and introducing actual knowledge of the topic into a discussion where it was not wanted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/youve-served-your-time-now-pay-your-bill/821446.md?page=6)