# Zack Greinke- does this mean sportswriters are getting smarter? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 18, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040 "2009-11-18T16:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/21 "2009-11-19T18:43:54Z")
It’ll never go away because it’s an easily digestible stat, but no, I’m not sure a pitcher’s won-loss record is important. The team’s won-loss record matters. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/22 "2009-11-19T18:53:22Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You can never eliminate wins/losses as an important statistic. It is the most important statistic of all. Whether it tells all you need to know is questionable. But it is certainly not irrelevant. But it’s a TEAM statistic (and yes, the most important team statistic). It’s application to pitchers is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/23 "2009-11-19T23:16:18Z")
Well, clearly, whatever else may be true, after awarding the Cy Young (NL) to Lincecum, wins and losses are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/24 "2009-11-19T23:24:21Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Well, clearly, whatever else may be true, after awarding the Cy Young (NL) to Lincecum, wins and losses are irrelevant. There were no 20 game winners in the NL. 19 was max ,so there wasn’t a whole lot of difference. Wins and losses are important. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/25 "2009-11-19T23:45:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Pedro also had a 1.90 ERA that year, which was practically unheard of after 1968. > > ETA: And he pitched 13 complete games. Unless you’re Greg Maddux, in which case you just call it “the mid-90s” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/26 "2009-11-20T00:50:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There were no 20 game winners in the NL. 19 was max ,so there wasn’t a whole lot of difference. Wins and losses are important. So the difference between 19 and 20 is greater than the difference than 15 and 19? Can you tell me why you think a team stat should be used for an individual player? ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/27 "2009-11-20T15:09:34Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > So the difference between 19 and 20 is greater than the difference than 15 and 19? > > Can you tell me why you think a team stat should be used for an individual player? He never will. He’s just going to repeat “wins and losses are important” by rote for the rest of this board’s existence, even if MLB itself drops the statistic. Congrats to both Greinke and Lincecum. The best men won. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/28 "2009-11-21T22:06:21Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > So the difference between 19 and 20 is greater than the difference than 15 and 19? > > Can you tell me why you think a team stat should be used for an individual player? Do you honestly think wins will be demoted as an important statistic? Baseball is a team game. Pitchers get a lot of help from a good defense. Last year the Tigers had a horrible time with pitching. This year they were pretty solid. The difference was they picked up some good defensive players. Everett gave and took away at short. He played good D which helped a lot. But his hitting was pathetic which hurt. When did I say a one game difference was important. I think a 3 or 4 game difference makes me want to go deeper. Do you really think a 4 game win difference can be snubbed? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/29 "2009-11-22T01:15:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Do you honestly think wins will be demoted as an important statistic? Baseball is a team game. Pitchers get a lot of help from a good defense. Last year the Tigers had a horrible time with pitching. This year they were pretty solid. The difference was they picked up some good defensive players. Everett gave and took away at short. He played good D which helped a lot. But his hitting was pathetic which hurt. > When did I say a one game difference was important. I think a 3 or 4 game difference makes me want to go deeper. Do you really think a 4 game win difference can be snubbed? But it WAS snubbed. DUH! You said there was no 20 game winner, so a 15 game winner winning isn’t that big a surprise. But there was a 19 game winner; is the difference between 15 and 19 that much less than the difference between 15 and 20 that it supports your thesis somehow? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/30 "2009-11-22T06:16:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Pitchers get a lot of help from a good defense. Which is why people are looking more and more at pitching stats that _don’t_ depend so much on defense. Wins are not one of those stats because they are heavily influenced by run support and other things. In terms of wins, Greinke finished in a three-way tie for seventh in the AL. Lincecum finished in an eight-way tie for fourth. Both won their awards over guys with 19 wins. So clearly, the win totals did not count for too much. Let’s not pretend the win is completely dead: a guy who wins 20 games is probably going to have a leg up over guys who don’t. Since there were none, other stats took precedent. I wouldn’t bet on that happening every year, but it’s also true that the wins leader or a 20 game winner is no longer a lock to win. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040/31 "2009-11-22T13:07:42Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Do you honestly think wins will be demoted as an important statistic? Baseball is a team game. Yes - baseball is a team game. As such, team statistics such as wins are a great indicator of _team performance_. They’re not such a great indicator of\* individual performance\* because… > [@](#): > > Pitchers get a lot of help from a good defense. Do you know who had a really terrible, horrible, no good, very bad defense behind him? Greinke. Does that for some reason make him a worse pitcher because his defense lost games for him? Like you said - it’s a TEAM game. The Cy Young is an INDIVIDUAL award. Why are you punishing the individual for something the team did? > [@](#): > > When did I say a one game difference was important. I think a 3 or 4 game difference makes me want to go deeper. Do you really think a 4 game win difference can be snubbed? When you said this: > [@](#): > > There were no 20 game winners in the NL. 19 was max ,so there wasn’t a whole lot of difference. Wins and losses are important. 20 wins = your gold standard 19 wins = Wainwright’s win total 15 wins = Lincecum’s win total The difference between 20 and 19 is one. The difference between 19 and 15 is four. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zack-greinke-does-this-mean-sportswriters-are-getting-smarter/518040.md?page=1)