# Zarqawi Killed - Will It Make A Difference? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2006, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862 "2006-06-08T09:40:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/161 "2006-06-09T15:55:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > **Birdmonster:** My bad - I didn’t notice your followup post before writing this. I figured—understood. In fact, I was planning on more or less finishing that thought in the same way you did, pointing out that Hussein had a long, long history of violence spread out over time, such that it was his style of ruling (like oh so many dictators). One can only hope that the violence in Iraq now is similar to the 1991 spike you mentioned; to wit: an unstable time where those who would use violence as a means of control over-excercise this tactic. Here’s to hoping. Re: IraqBodyCount: Do you know a place to get a better number? I do realize how they arrive at their count and that it is, by virtue of their methods, going to be a low count. It’s just seems the most legit I’ve found. Sorry for the lengthy hijack with this whole Saddam vs. Current Situation thing, but I learned a thing or two and, hell, read that little red banner up there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/162 "2006-06-09T18:06:10Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think you guys ( **John** and **xtisme** ) are scraping for a reason to excuse Bush’s decision not to hit Zarqawi. Does either of you honestly believe that a lack of faith in the intel was the reason? Does either of you sincerely believe that the WH had more faith in the WMD stuff than they did that Zarqawi had a camp in Northern Iraq? Is that really the most likely reason that Bush chose not to bomb the camp? That they thought it might not really be there? Be real. You are mistaking my position on this. I am only saying that I don’t think we have enough information (by a long shot) to determine the answer either way. You may very well be right, **Diogenes**. I’m not ruling out that possibility. I’m only saying that there are other interpreations that explain equally as well the few facts we do have. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/163 "2006-06-09T19:05:36Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Then they’re obviously having difficulty using their fingers to browse through the Blog, jeez, it’s not that hard. But considering your whinging about this, I’ll provide an example, such as Coles assertion that Sunni Iraqis just ‘love’ their now dead leader/terrorist > > [iraqpundit: May 2006](http://iraqpundit.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_iraqpundit_archive.html) > > Done, enjoy. I read Iraqpundit, then I read Cole. I’m missing any hint of a suggestion that Cole’s citing Bloomberg for that assertion; rather, he just seems to be saying that it’s so. Cole’s clearly drawing on a larger pool of reading about the region in making the remark in question. If Iraqpundit were able to show that that wasn’t true, or that Cole was relying on weak evidence while ignoring stronger evidence, that would be one thing. But what we have here is a dishonest post - Iraqpundit claims that Cole claimed a particular cite as support when Cole apparently did no such thing. And jumps on it with both feet, as if there was zero doubt that Cole had committed this error, which is the mark of a dishonest debater. By the way, I thought you said Iraqpundit was an Iraqi. Seems he’s an Iraqi _exile_. Can we say that’s a pretty significant difference? > [@](#): > > Iraqi intelligence played a large part in securing the death of Iraqs leading terrorists. Again, I must ask you: cite? > [@](#): > > That can happen in any city in any second world or third world state and you know it, it does not indicate that the Iraqi government has no control on the street level, only that the level of violence pittied against it is a challenge to it’s order. How often _do_ things like this happen in ‘any second world or third world state’? Stuff like this, as I pointed out, happens in Iraq all the time. > [@](#): > > Well if that wasn’t much of a contentious issue because they ‘have limited abilities to act in the rest of the city’ the filling of that cabinet wouldn’t of been so momentous if it wasn’t so important, which it clearly is. Ron Zeigler? Is that you?? Seriously, I can’t make head or tail of what you’re saying here. > [@](#): > > And that’s why I don’t believe Iraq will become as such. Iraq isn’t so much a failed state as it is a crisis state, that is a state which can go either way to a resilient state, where the governmental bodies are able to cope with the stress of each crisis, or collapse and civil war, which has nearly come about before in Iraq. You can ‘believe’ whatever you want to, and you can use whatever terminology you want to. But there’s a shitload of violence out there, and Iraq doesn’t have any continuity of institutions: nobody’s trusted (or even expected, in all likelihood) to be the bulwark against the violence. The police and bureaucrats and so forth that we expected to keep showing up at their jobs while we deposed Saddam, didn’t, and their offices were all looted to rubble. And then of course we disbanded the military. > [@](#): > > Iran is not a democratic state, it is a country which is under the control of the Supreme religious council which appoints the PM from parties IT can approve of. That is not democracy. I won’t even delve into the rule of law issues you’ve failed to bring up. I agree, but they have elections and stuff like that. Just having elections doesn’t make a country a democracy. > [@](#): > > Sharia law, I knew this would come about, it’s not impossible for most aspects of Sharia law to be incorporated into democratic government, just as long as the option of repealing the laws can be brought about at a later date. So if they want Sharia law, that’s not a problem, the only problem will be only if they cannot be removed in any fashion from the levers of government. Saddam was removed from the levers of government. So was Iraq democratic under Saddam? Of course not. The question is, will Sharia be just another law, or will it be that with which all laws must harmonize, effectively beyond repeal by normal legislative action? If you think it’s going to be just another law, I must ask for a hit of whatever you’re smoking. > [@](#): > > The Kurdish leadership has shown considerable compromise considering the situation that has come about regarding independence, the political leadership knows it can punch more politically if it remains engaged with Baghdad rather than inviting Turkish and Iranian Irk and isolation if it becomes independent too soon. ‘too soon.’ Exactly. > [@](#): > > All the better, considering that if they’re fractous it means they have less chance of cementing their power over the other minorities in the country, and have to rely on them to work in government. IF they’re willing to set aside force as a means of conflict resolution, and work things out through government only. But Basra of late clearly says they’re not yet willing to do so. I suppose that could change, and we can all hope. But hope is not a plan, and I don’t see a plan. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/164 "2006-06-09T19:16:12Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Then they’re obviously having difficulty using their fingers to browse through the Blog, jeez, it’s not that hard. But considering your whinging about this, I’ll provide an example, such as Coles assertion that Sunni Iraqis just ‘love’ their now dead leader/terrorist Let’s compare: **Ryan\_Liam** : "Coles assertion that Sunni Iraqis just ‘love’ their now dead leader/terrorist " [Juan Cole](http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/shiite-mosque-bombed-weapons-from.html): “There is increasing and alarming evidence that the Zarqawi organization is putting down deep grass roots among Sunni Arab Iraqis themselves.” Of course, [there is evidence](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/08/AR2006060801652.html) that some Sunnis were in fact fans of Zarqawi: > [@](#): > > While Zarqawi’s goal of establishing an Islamic state in Iraq was not widely embraced, many Sunnis saw him as their only defender in a country whose government is dominated by Shiites and subject to foreign influence. > > “Zarqawi was the one who put a limit to Shiite influence and all the killing of Sunnis,” said Saad Saleem, a 32-year-old laborer. “It is a big loss. Who will fight the Americans the way he used to fight them? They were ready to leave the country because of his operations. Now there will be no one like him who will be able to push the Americans to leave Iraq. There will be no one to stop the Iranian Shiites. Al-Qaeda must look for a good replacement for Zarqawi. Otherwise the Sunnis will lose everything in Iraq.” Obviously I don’t know if Cole is right about the Zarqawi organization putting down roots among Sunni Arabs. But the WaPo’s reporting says that your ridicule of the notion that Sunnis liked Zarqawi is baseless. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/165 "2006-06-09T19:44:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Obviously I don’t know if Cole is right about the Zarqawi organization putting down roots among Sunni Arabs. But the WaPo’s reporting says that your ridicule of the notion that Sunnis liked Zarqawi is baseless. Condi Rice’s assistant in charge of Iraqi affairs was interviewed on the PBS News Hour yesteraday, and he stated that we believe that to be the case. It was a good interview. I’ve not been impressed with many of the folks in the Bush administration, but this guy seems like an exception. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/166 "2006-06-09T20:46:49Z")
> [@Birdmonster](#): > > I figured—understood. In fact, I was planning on more or less finishing that thought in the same way you did, pointing out that Hussein had a long, long history of violence spread out over time, such that it was his style of ruling (like oh so many dictators). One can only hope that the violence in Iraq now is similar to the 1991 spike you mentioned; to wit: an unstable time where those who would use violence as a means of control over-excercise this tactic. Here’s to hoping. I wish I could share your hope. But it certainly looks as if, in Iraq, 2006 is more violent than 2005, which was more violent than 2004, which was more violent than 2003. I just don’t see any sign that anybody’s getting any traction on slowing down the disintegration of this country. The violence in the south is really bad news. For the past few years, Basra has been a miserably hard-ass Shi’ite religious state, but at least there’s been no fighting. > [@](#): > > Re: IraqBodyCount: Do you know a place to get a better number? I do realize how they arrive at their count and that it is, by virtue of their methods, going to be a low count. It’s just seems the most legit I’ve found. Sorry for the lengthy hijack with this whole Saddam vs. Current Situation thing, but I learned a thing or two and, hell, read that little red banner up there. No problem about the hijack - I started it, really. I think it’s germane to the thread topic just in terms of what we mean by ‘better’ and ‘worse’ with respect to Iraq, whether we’re talking about different times post-Saddam, or whether we’re comparing pre- and post-Saddam. One number that is somewhat helpful - and I don’t know if it’s yet available for all time periods; according to [this piece last year](http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/081705B.shtml) the counts were supposedly secret - is the count of dead at the Baghdad morgue, which I found for last month, and for January through May 2006, in [this CNN article](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/06/iraq.main/index.html). As I mentioned earlier, only those dead by violence wind up in the morgue, and not even all of those: according to [this ABC piece](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2044830), the count excludes victims of suicide bombings and other suicide attacks - no autopsy necessary :(. The counts for May and for January through May are 1398 and 6025, respectively. So that’s 40 a day for Jan-May, and 45 a day in May alone. And this number is just for Baghdad, of course. But how many Iraqis have been killed in post-Saddam Iraq? Nobody knows. All we have is different pieces of the picture. Still, it seems to be more than enough to say Iraqbodycount’s number (again, not in any way meant as criticism) is well below the actual total. Half again as many? Double? Heck if I know. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/167 "2006-06-11T12:06:23Z")
Thought I’d add that today’s WaPo has an article, [Zarqawi’s Hideout Was Secret Till Last Minute](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/10/AR2006061000528.html), that pretty much demolishes all that bushwa some posters put forth about Zarqawi’s killing having been part of a joint U.S.-Iraqi operation. > [@](#): > > “Rahman [arqawi’s spiritual advisor] did certain things that would be an indication he would be having [a meeting] with Zarqawi,” Caldwell said. > > However, as the Americans tracked Abdel Rahman that day – apparently by air surveillance and other means – “we didn’t know that would be the house he would be going to,” Caldwell said. > > Once Abdel Rahman arrived, Caldwell said, U.S. military officials were presented with what appeared to be their first clean shot of Zarqawi since the start of the war – fixed in one spot for the time being, without large numbers of innocent civilians around him. > > However, “we did not have actual physical ground troops in the area,” Caldwell said. > > Commanders decided to call in an airstrike, Caldwell said. They quickly located two Air Force F-16s within striking range, one engaged in refueling at the time, Caldwell said. > > One F-16 was ordered to peel off for the mission. > > “He left his wing man” and headed off as a “single ship” – something “that is not done in the Air Force,” Caldwell said, highlighting the immediacy of the mission. What - no troops in the area at all? No Iraqi troops surrounding the house? No joint U.S.-Iraqi military operation? Not even a combined U.S. air-and-ground operation, but just one lone U.S. plane with a bomb! > [@](#): > > Iraqi police, who have a station a few miles away, were the first on the scene, American and Iraqi officials say. By the time American forces arrived, the Iraqis had Zarqawi on a stretcher, Caldwell said. Then the Iraqis show up, not because they’re part of a combined operation, but because there are such things as local police stations. Yeah, I’m rubbing it in. But we’ve been through all this before, this effort to pretend that our efforts to build an army in a client state are going far better than they actually are. I was in my late teens when Nixon’s “Vietnamization” was going on. And even if I wasn’t old and stuff like that, it’s hard to overlook the repeated episodes of this Administration’s having claimed that the Iraqi security forces are of certain numbers and competence, only to find out that they aren’t. One of these days, the Iraqi security forces may actually turn out to be worth something. Or maybe not; maybe all the competent units will be sectarian outfits that are effective only in fighting their side of the civil war. But in the meantime, it stands to reason that they should be believed to be not particularly useful to our stated aims until hard evidence proves otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/168 "2006-06-11T15:59:22Z")
Hows does this prove your point about the Iraq forces one way or the other? How does the relative strength of the South Vietnam’s military matter to how the Iraqi army is or isn’t coming along? Are they linked in some mysterious way (other than in your head)? You are drawing correlations that are in your mind alone. If you want to present some evidence that Iraqs military is \, then do so…don’t attempt to make some kind of connection between Iraq and South Vietnam as if its a slam dunk meaningful comparison. BTW, who was making this point that it was a joint Iraq/US endevor? Why is it ‘Bushwa’…did they make it up out of whole clothe or were there early (unconfirmed) reports of an Iraqi military presence at the scene? And why is it invalid unless the Iraqi military was right there on the scene surrounding the house? Obviously the Iraqi military was involved…as well as some unknown Iraq informer. Who developed this intelligence? The US or the Iraqi’s…or both? At minimum they were involved after the fact…because I’ve seen photos of their military at the scene. That seems to indicate that they weren’t cut completely out of the loop. But you do realize, I’m sure, that the Iraqi military is mainly a ground force atm, that its the US that has the majority of the air power…and that such intelligence needs to be acted on extremely rapidly if you actually want to get the guy. This is no indication, one way or the other, the current state of the Iraqi military…they simply don’t have this capability (i.e. for timely and percision air strikes on a house sized target). Note all the OTHER times we failed to get him (or any other high profile target that moves around a lot and is paranoid as hell). -XT ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/169 "2006-06-11T18:45:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Hows does this prove your point about the Iraq forces one way or the other? It says _Iraqi troops weren’t there_; **no** ground troops were involved in the operation. Assorted claims had been made in this thread (and I’m not gonna go back and figure out which ones were made by **Rune** and which by **Ryan\_Liam** and which by **Shodan** ) that Zarqawi was killed in a combined U.S.-Iraqi operation, and even that Iraqi troops had the house surrounded when the bombs fell. Instead, the total operation apparently consisted of one airplane and no ground troops. > [@](#): > > How does the relative strength of the South Vietnam’s military matter to how the Iraqi army is or isn’t coming along? Are they linked in some mysterious way (other than in your head)? You are drawing correlations that are in your mind alone. If you want to present some evidence that Iraqs military is \, then do so…don’t attempt to make some kind of connection between Iraq and South Vietnam as if its a slam dunk meaningful comparison. Corrrelation? Vietnam: repeated claims that the ARVN was making progress towards being able to fight the war without our assistance. Claims all proved to be wrong. Iraq: repeated claims that the Iraqi security forces were making progress towards being able to fight the surgency on their own. Claims so far all proved to be wrong. > [@](#): > > BTW, who was making this point that it was a joint Iraq/US endevor? See above. Does it matter? > [@](#): > > Why is it ‘Bushwa’ Because it’s false. > [@](#): > > …did they make it up out of whole clothe or were there early (unconfirmed) reports of an Iraqi military presence at the scene? They weren’t able to produce cites. > [@](#): > > And why is it invalid unless the Iraqi military was right there on the scene surrounding the house? ??? Look, could you at least read the stuff I quoted? They didn’t have time to mount a ground operation. Wouldn’t that directly imply _there was no ground operation??_ And if there was no ground operation, then unless the Iraqis were involved in the air operation, _it wasn’t a joint Iraqi-U.S. operation._ And they weren’t. QED. > [@](#): > > Obviously the Iraqi military was involved… Dunno where you get that. > [@](#): > > …as well as some unknown Iraq informer. Or that either. > [@](#): > > Who developed this intelligence? The US or the Iraqi’s…or both? At the link, it says: > [@](#): > > The capture last month of an Iraqi customs worker, Ziad Khalaf al-Kerbouly, by Jordanian intelligence officers led the Americans to Abdel Rahman, said the U.S. intelligence source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Kerbouly, who said on Jordanian television May 23 that he had used his job to help Zarqawi smuggle cash and materiel, gave Jordanian intelligence agents Abdel Rahman’s name and contacts, the intelligence source said. > > A top secret U.S. Special Operations unit, Task Force 77, located Abdel Rahman and kept him under surveillance, the source said. So Iraqi intelligence wasn’t involved in the breakthrough that gave us Rahman, who led us to Zarqawi, and U.S. Special Ops were the ones who kept trach of Rahman. While it’s possible that Iraqi intelligence, such as it is, was involved in surveillance of Rahman, Task force 77 is described as “top secret,” and that likely precludes Iraqi involvement at this point. > [@](#): > > At minimum they were involved after the fact…because I’ve seen photos of their military at the scene. That seems to indicate that they weren’t cut completely out of the loop. Finding out about something after it’s a done deal isn’t being ‘in the loop.’ That’s universally true. > [@](#): > > But you do realize, I’m sure, that the Iraqi military is mainly a ground force atm, that its the US that has the majority of the air power…and that such intelligence needs to be acted on extremely rapidly if you actually want to get the guy. This is no indication, one way or the other, the current state of the Iraqi military…they simply don’t have this capability (i.e. for timely and percision air strikes on a house sized target). Exactly what I was saying. You cannot use this incident to say something positive about the Iraqi military. Glad we agree on that. > [@](#): > > Note all the OTHER times we failed to get him (or any other high profile target that moves around a lot and is paranoid as hell). > > -XT We didn’t ‘fail’ to get him on three pre-war occasions; the White House _denied permission_ to attempt to do this sort of number on him. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/170 "2006-06-12T16:58:39Z")
Meet the new boss: Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Muhajir. The article I read did not indicate if he was Iraqi or a foreigner. If he’s an Iraqi, that’s not good… ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/171 "2006-06-12T17:19:19Z")
They’re saying it’s probably not his real name, but a _nom de guerre_ of sorts, and that “al Muhajer” means “immigrant”, suggesting he’s not from Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/172 "2006-06-13T21:11:43Z")
Everything Powell said in front of the UN was untrue. We had Blix ,Ritter and a mass of inspectors going everywhere the US government told them. The reports were clear and obvious.No weapons of mass destruction. The gas they talked about has a 2 yr shelf liife.Another known. There was no nuclear program .Known.He was a threat to his people but not on the level we are.As long as you have troops from a country a few thousand mikes away occupying your country,you will have combat. Want it to stop .Pull out.We are there for the long haul and for OUR interests.,as corporate and republicans define them. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/173 "2006-06-13T21:17:32Z")
Remember the yellow cake. They knew it was a lie and continually repeated it. Its a pattern of lies and deception. Zarkawis death will change little. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862/174 "2006-06-13T21:29:33Z")
What thread do you think you’re posting in…? Did we just drop a bomb on Powell, too? 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zarqawi-killed-will-it-make-a-difference/359862.md?page=8)