# Zell Miller Speaks From the Heart **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700 "2004-09-02T02:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/121 "2004-09-03T14:49:12Z")
Self-justifying poppycock. Arguments here stand or fall on their own merits, not by majority vote. If the arguments consistently brought forth by one faction fall disproportionately often, as they do tend to do here in this bastion of ignorance-fighting, how is that anybody else’s fault? I don’t lie about my location, either, even if I don’t post my street address. And the last time I read any of the alternative papers that Cecil’s column runs in was before it went online. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/122 "2004-09-03T14:52:04Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Oh, I get it. Rich people just don’t have all the leisure times of the poor people to come up with intelligent arguments and facts to support their views. That’s funny too. I don’t think “message board” is high on their list for entertainment or fostering politics. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/123 "2004-09-03T15:01:05Z")
Put that on the list, **Comrade Elvis**! Let us be sure that, come the Revolution, running dog jackals of the ruling class are afforded _plenty_ of time to fester politics. Notify the cadres at the Jane Fonda Political Re-education Aerobics Camp to cut back on the self-criticism sessions, afford a bit more time for other pursuits. Yours in Revolution, **E.** ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/124 "2004-09-03T15:06:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > By Goddess, its a rationale! A sickly, wobbly rationale, it must be admitted, but a rationale nonetheless! But you missed the qualifier, its buried there in the word “plausible”. > > It the Board’s FAQ, you will find a list of the “alternative” papers who carry the Sacred Texts. A noble collection, to be sure, but spare. > > But let’s be indulgent! Let us look upon this effort with affectionate encouragement! Its an effort, after all, however feeble. > > If, as you suggest without a hint of irony, the majority of Dopers arrived by way of the insidious corruption of the “alternative” press (it’s so nice to hear “the hippies” get blamed, we are so overlooked these days…), then would it not stand to reason that the vast majority of Dopers must reside in those self-same markets? Austin, Boston, Santa Cruz, Chicago…by your reasoning, these must be the “location” of the vast majority of Dopers. > > Even the most cursory examination of GD, the Pit, etc. will show this to be drivel. > > Your rationale throws a bowling ball to a drowning man: its worse than useless, but the poor bugger will cling to it, nonetheless. Well, the board started with fans of the Straight Dope column. From there, it grew by word of mouth, I’ll theorize, to places not reached by the original newspapers. Since the board was somewhat liberal at the outset, it probably attracted other liberals. Perfectly natural. To quote John O’Sullivan’s theory, an organization that is not explicitly right-wing will become left-wing over time. This organization was starting out with a left-wing bent. I think this may have been reinforced over time. Surely it has hardened in the time I’ve been here, and more goodhearted conservatives have left in disgust at the overheated rhetoric. People who have been here longer than I have been can evaluate our respective theories. I think mine has the ring of truth to it, though. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/125 "2004-09-03T15:13:41Z")
I do well enough to be considered \*part \* of the ruling class, **El Ucidator**. But I’m one who recognizes that the facts are what they are and not necessarily what I’d like them to be, and I’m one who recognizes that we’re all in this boat together. I’m no revolutionary; I just see We the People as the board of directors of USA Inc., we’re giving our CEO his quadrennial performance review, and it looks like we’re going to have to fire him for incurable incompetence and insubordination. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/126 "2004-09-03T15:15:47Z")
And now, the blowback… [http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6141122](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6141122) > [@](#): > > …The campaign later released a guest list that dropped Miller and his wife from the list. Bush campaign spokesman Scott Stanzel said Miller was not in the box because the Bush campaign had scheduled him to do too many television interviews… [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5897622/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5897622/) > [@](#): > > …There was no explanation, however, for why Miller would be giving multiple interviews during Bush’s acceptance speech, or what channels would snub the president in favor of Miller. Nor was it made clear why Miller’s wife also was not allowed to take her place in the president’s box 24 hours after his deeply personal denunciation of his own party’s nominee… “No, Zell, don’t be silly! They’re not shouting “Unclean! Unclean!”. Its “Uncle Lean”, they’re remarking on your trim and svelte physique. Now, if you would just wear this nice bell, so that we can hear you coming and rush to greet you…” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/127 "2004-09-03T15:18:29Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Done with the temper tantrum yet?..And you can take that ridiculous claim and stick it in the appropriate place. Gotta love a post that begins by accusing **me** of a temper tantrum, and ends with insults. In GD. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/128 "2004-09-03T15:26:31Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > …I think mine has the ring of truth to it, though. Could be the ring of truth. Could be the knell of doom. Tomato, tomato. But credit where due, you are the first to even make the effort. > [@Elvis](#): > > …El Ucidator… Only amongst my Hispanic _companeros_, but more commonly known as **El Guapo**. Amongst my adopted tribe, the Fukahwee, I am called **Dances with Vulvas**. “Sir” will do nicely, as well. **“Tree Top”** is also common, though I blush to admit the circumstances… ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/129 "2004-09-03T15:44:05Z")
**RTFirefly** > [@](#): > > And you can take that ridiculous claim and stick it in the appropriate place. [Moderator Hat ON] RT, if you want to tell anyone to stick _anything_ _anywhere_, do it in the Pit. NOT here. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/130 "2004-09-03T16:02:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …Fukahwee As in “Where in the?” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/131 "2004-09-03T16:05:46Z")
Grey man right. Still have forked tongue. Wife like that? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/132 "2004-09-03T16:16:27Z")
Si, errr, I mean NO! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/133 "2004-09-03T16:43:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How, on a Board devoted to rational debate and demanding of factual support, did your political opinion come to have a minority of constituents? Conspiracy? Is it one of the Ten Thousand Treachcerys of Hilary? Do liberals creep in, snatch an unwitting conservative, chloroform them and spirit them away? Well, remember, the Doper community is not a good representative sample of the general population. We are all people who are familiar with Cecil’s column – which, in the U.S., is published mainly in alternative weekly tabloids in major metro areas. These tabs have a progressive political slant and they are distributed in places where the people are generally more liberal than those in rural areas. But, yeah, it’s also because liberals are smarter. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/134 "2004-09-03T16:44:59Z")
Let’s not take Zell too seriously or worry too much about it. Those who admire him weren’t going to vote for Kerry anyway. Let’s just enjoy the humor of the situation, take a timeout and enjoy this from [whitehouse.org.](http://www.georgewbush.org/convention/zell-miller.asp) > [@](#): > > Truth be told – I’m a silly, senile old man. And there can be no doubt that the only reason I’m addressing you tonight is because I’m a turncoat Benedict Arnold, a Republican show pony who’s supposed to convince the country, and moderate Democrats, how great the President is. Forget the fact that traitors should never be trusted. > [@](#): > > John Kerry voted against a multitude of military programs, and he just doesn’t get it: the will of the people, at least the people in this great impenetrable bunker of a convention center, is that the United States of America is a militant theocracy, just like Iran. Soldiers, out of the goodness of their heart, give us our freedoms, which we shouldn’t actually use, but put on the mantle all tasteful like. So they found a turncoat to spout some bile. Big deal. OK, so the Dems had their convention, the Pubs had theirs, now let’s get to the debates. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/135 "2004-09-03T16:55:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, remember, the Doper community is not a good representative sample of the general population. We are all people who are familiar with Cecil’s column – which, in the U.S., is published mainly in alternative weekly tabloids in major metro areas. These tabs have a progressive political slant and they are distributed in places where the people are generally more liberal than those in rural areas. > > But, yeah, it’s also because liberals are smarter. 😉 Oh . . . that’s already been covered . . . my bad. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/136 "2004-09-03T17:47:30Z")
Just proves how obvious that conclusion is, **BrainGlutton**. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/137 "2004-09-03T17:55:43Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > **Shodan** , I sincerely think that the Dems are just pissed off because, for once, the Republicans are finally willing to put up a fight. Well, at least we’re pushing back. That’s true to some extent, but there is something more to it as well. For years, the liberals suffered agonies of frustration because Reagan won his elections. For eight long years, and then again when Bush Sr. went in on Reagan’s coattails, they kept trying and trying to do pretty much what they are doing now - piling on and piling on, and agreeing with each other in loud voices that the economy was **not** doing better, that you couldn’t say those things about the USSR, that Reagan was an irresponsible cowboy who was going to start World War III, that everything was ghastly and getting worse. And none of it worked. People heard their arguments, looked around them, and voted for Reagan. And then, finally, along came Clinton. Finally, a Democrat who could get re-elected. OK, he was a sleazeball, but they were willing to overlook that. Although the cognitive dissonance involved in pretending sexual harassment and lying under oath were, well, different when a Democrat is involved took something out of the more honest ones. And when the Republicans were _not_ willing to overlook it, they could convince themselves that it was all just partisanship. But that is where the difficulty came in. They had to convince themselves that anyone who refused to accept their spin on the various Clinton scandals must be a bad person. Because, really, you can’t responsibly argue that lying is bad for Republicans but OK for Clinton, or that even the accusation of sexual harassment is disqualifying for Thomas but a forgiveable foible for Clinton. So it _had_ to be something else. It **had** to, or they would lose all their self-respect. And then came the 2000 elections. They were already entirely sure that the White House was theirs by right. And, that anyone who refused to accept this must be a slimeball. And then they lost. And, having convinced themselves that their political opponents are disgusting scum, they cast around in desperation for an explanation of how they, the embodiment of all that is right and virtuous in American politics, could possibly have been defeated, fairly and squarely. And so we got the various “The Republicans cheated! The ballots were rigged! The Supreme Court is fixed! SUE SOMEBODY!” arguments. And now it is 2004, and the same thing is happening again. And, despite the fact that they have all repeated their best arguments in increasingly louder voices, it isn’t working. What seems to be self-evidently, obviously true is not guaranteeing them what they feel they have the right to demand. Bush is slightly ahead in the polls, and what would be a landslide victory for them if people weren’t so stupid and ignorant as not to accept whatever they claim without examination is slipping away. And so, having convinced themselves with the only argument they have (“BushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLiedBushLied…”), they have no real idea why it doesn’t automatically convince others. So they fall back on their only recourse - invective. Miller doesn’t like Kerry. Could this possibly be based on principle? Of course not - it _must_ be because he is a racist, evil person. Most of Kerry’s fellow swift boat commanders don’t think he would be a good President. Might this be because Kerry attacked them upon his return from Viet Nam? Of course not - it _must_ be because they are evil liars. And so on. It goes back to the old saw: > [@](#): > > Republicans think Democrats have bad policies. Democrats think Republicans are bad people. It is an exaggeration, as most such are, but it contains an element of truth. And it will be especially true in the hothouse atmosphere of a leftist-dominated board like the SDMB. If you snipe at, pile on, sneer at, and Pit enough conservatives, you can drive many of them away. And then pat yourself on the back on the superior force of your arguments, if you feel so inclined. But, since those who happen on the SDMB will like be predisposed to the Left for the reasons described by **Mr. Moto** and others, a lot can be done to ensure that uncomfortable dissent can be kept to a minimum. Thus the disparity. Every speaker at the RNC convention is Pitted and insulted, and it is assumed that they must be scum from the nether reaches of hell. No such corresponding series of threads on DNC speakers exists. Because **anything** the DNC says is self-evidently right, **everything** the RNC says is self-evidently wrong, and anyone who refuses to nod reverently when this is repeated must be a bad, evil, racist, lying, homophobic, dishonest, traitorous, blah blah blah until they run out of breath. In other words, business as usual for the Usual Suspects. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/138 "2004-09-03T19:12:01Z")
**Shodan** , I know that you can be a reasonable poster. So I really hope that you can understand: Democrats are not pissed off because “republicans are fighting back.” Democrats are pissed off because of the slanderous lies being blatantly told about our candidate for presidency. We are pissed off, because the President of the United States, himself, is presenting these lies directly to his constituents, and anytime we try to point it out we are immediately labeled as “Bush haters” and sometimes even traitors (rather than trying - at all - to see where we might be coming from). Personally, yes- I _am_ a Bush hater; but as a reasonable poster, I hope you see that I actually have reasons for my feelings toward our president. If Kerry were telling blatant lies about the president, I would be just as disgusted. I mean come on, trying to tell the american public that Kerry voted 350 times to raise taxes, or that Kerry opposed giving our troops body armor? The latter accusation is completely sickening, as a human being. > [@Shodan](#): > > It goes back to the old saw: > > > [@](#): > > > > Republicans think Democrats have bad policies. Democrats think Republicans are bad people. > > It is an exaggeration, as most such are, but it contains an element of truth. If republicans are merely attacking our “policies”, then maybe they should stop creating _false policies_, pinning them on the democrats, and pointing out how these (false) policies make the democrats un-american. The implication here, in case you missed it, is that “Republicans think Democrats are bad people.” Of course, why bother addressing the democrats’ actual policies, when making things up and painting the democrats as “weak on defense” “girlie men” seems to be working just fine. :rolleyes: LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/139 "2004-09-03T19:30:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Miller doesn’t like Kerry. Could this possibly be based on principle? I don’t like Bush. Could this possibly be based on principle? I don’t like Kerry. Could this possibly be based on principle? I don’t like Bill Clinton. Could this possibly be based on principle? I don’t like Zell Miller. Could this possibly be based on principle? A lot of the people participating in this thread are repulsively partisan. I won’t make many exceptions, and certainly not for you. There are only a handful of people on the Dope who listen to the speeches rather than just noting whose name is in the caption. It’s depressing as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/140 "2004-09-03T19:31:24Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > Democrats are pissed off because of the slanderous lies being blatantly told about our candidate for presidency. Nope, I’m sorry. This just isn’t true. It is not the case that Democrats are always telling the truth, or that they have demonstrated clearly that whatever Republicans say is a lie. That is simply self-serving political rhetoric. This is a normal campaign. Kerry is not being treated any differently than any other candidate, regardless of party. Indeed, he is being treated no worse that the Democrats treated Bush - and Reagan, and Thomas, and Bork, and dozens of others. Let’s not pretend that anything said or done in 2004 is anything besides SOP for Democrats **and** Republicans. This suggestion of yours that Democrats are clearly, undeniably, consistently in the right and Republicans are doing something beyond the pale is simply partisan spin. Payback’s a bitch, I grant you. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700.md?page=8)