# Zell Miller Speaks From the Heart **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700 "2004-09-02T02:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/141 "2004-09-03T19:34:09Z")
What a marvelous little fable, **Shodan**. But, of course, that’s what it is…surely you recognize that? It is entirely devoid of arguable contention…well, save one. “They lost”. This poor phrase, how embarrassed it must be, to stand there naked upon the stage, without props, without costuming…and everybody in the audience knows that half a million more people voted for Gore than for Bush. You knew that, right, **Shodan**? It was in all the newspapers, even NewsMax covered it, I’m fairly sure. Is that when you discovered the splendid truth of the Electoral College, the somber wisdom of our Founders, to ensure that government by the people, for the people, can be abridged if deemed expedient, that we really need not concern ourselves overly much that fundamental principles are glossed over, so long as the right man ascends to power, however unworthily. But that is a fable as well, I hear you sputter! Ah, 'tis true! But my fable has a fact at its heart, and yours…has none. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/142 "2004-09-03T19:38:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It is not the case that Democrats are always telling the truth, or that they have demonstrated clearly that whatever Republicans say is a lie. It is also not the case that “they” have ever made that claim. If you’re going to depend upon strawmen, at least use them competently, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/143 "2004-09-03T19:40:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If, as you suggest without a hint of irony, the majority of Dopers arrived by way of the insidious corruption of the “alternative” press (it’s so nice to hear “the hippies” get blamed, we are so overlooked these days…), then would it not stand to reason that the vast majority of Dopers must reside in those self-same markets? Austin, Boston, Santa Cruz, Chicago…by your reasoning, these must be the “location” of the vast majority of Dopers. > > Even the most cursory examination of GD, the Pit, etc. will show this to be drivel. Nope. The original SDMB, I’m sure, was populated mainly by left-leaning folks precisely because of the column’s haven in alternative press. As the site continued, it attracted people across the political spectrum. Those who leaned left found a welcoming home; those that did not were not made to feel welcome. So as the board continued to grow in cyberspace, it was somewhat self-selecting for left-leaning members. That’s how we get to today: friendly progressives from all over the world find a home here. Conservatives have to struggle a bit to feel welcome. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/144 "2004-09-03T19:43:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Nope, I’m sorry. This just isn’t true. > > It is not the case that Democrats are always telling the truth, or that they have demonstrated clearly that whatever Republicans say is a lie. That is simply self-serving political rhetoric. Utter rot. Nobody said Democrats always tell the truth, you are boldly flaying a contention made by no one but yourself. You wrestle with your own invention and announce your victory to anyone fool enough to listen. Under the streetlamp, beckoning to passing sailors, offering discounts, you darkly whisper that the bitch across the street, _she_ is a whore. > [@](#): > > …Payback’s a bitch, I grant you… If God shall cease to avert His gaze, that truth shall come home to you. Quite soon. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/145 "2004-09-03T19:49:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As the site continued, it attracted people across the political spectrum. Those who leaned left found a welcoming home; those that did not were not made to feel welcome. So as the board continued to grow in cyberspace, it was somewhat self-selecting for left-leaning members. Still nope. The promulgators of falsehoods and poor reasoning are not welcome here and never have been. The explorers of fact and thought are welcome. That’s what “Fighting Ignorance” is about, if you’ll take a look at the masthead. If the more persistently ignorant are more attracted to one end of the political spectrum, that is certainly not the fault of those on the other end or the middle. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/146 "2004-09-03T19:49:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Quote: > > > [@LilShieste](#): > > > > Democrats are pissed off because of the slanderous lies being blatantly told about our candidate for presidency. > > Nope, I’m sorry. This just isn’t true. > > It is not the case that Democrats are always telling the truth, or that they have demonstrated clearly that whatever Republicans say is a lie. That is simply self-serving political rhetoric. Do _not_ put words into my mouth. I _never_ made the claim that democrats are “always telling the truth”, or anything resembling such a statement. And are you telling me that the accusations from the Bush campaign regarding Kerry being “weak on defense” (especially the parts I mentioned above with the body armor, and such) are _not_ blatant lies? > [@Shodan](#): > > This suggestion of yours that Democrats are clearly, undeniably, consistently in the right and Republicans are doing something beyond the pale is simply partisan spin. Again, I never made such a suggestion, so do not try to tell me that I did. If you have a cite showing where I did say this, I would be _very_ interested in seeing it. > [@Shodan](#): > > Payback’s a bitch, I grant you. If this whole thing is about “payback”, then _drop the age-old grudge you have against “the party”, and start addressing the actual issues_. It’s like trying to reason a child; “Well they started it!!” Life’s a bitch, I grant you. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/147 "2004-09-03T19:55:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What a marvelous little fable, **Shodan**. But, of course, that’s what it is…surely you recognize that? It is entirely devoid of arguable contention…well, save one. “They lost”. This poor phrase, how embarrassed it must be, to stand there naked upon the stage, without props, without costuming…and everybody in the audience knows that half a million more people voted for Gore than for Bush. So what? The total number of people voting for a President is utterly irrelevant in selecting a President. If your guy wins each of his states by a million votes, and my guy wins each of his states by 100 votes, we could conceivably end up with your guy ahead by 20 million votes. But not the Presidency. Those are the rules. It’s like complaining that you lost the football game even though you had more total yards on offense and outrushed the other team 3:1. That’s interesting. But it doesn’t change the fact that points on the board are what counts. Don’t like the Electoral College? Fine. Work to change it. But until it’s changed, don’t suggest that the end result is wrong. It’s not. It’s the correct result under the extant rule. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/148 "2004-09-03T20:12:07Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > by **Uncommon Sense** > I’m getting whooshed, right? Somebody tell me I’m getting whooshed. You’re getting whooshed. 😃 I’m not sure that you are, though. It’s possible Shodan really does believe in his make-believe world. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/149 "2004-09-03T20:38:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Don’t like the Electoral College? Fine. Work to change it. But until it’s changed, don’t suggest that the end result is wrong. It’s not. It’s the correct result under the extant rule. My contention is that the rule degrades the principle that the rule is _presumed_ to support: that each citizen has a vote, that all votes are equal, and that the sole purpose of an election is to effect the will of the people, as embodied in that vote. Any mechanism, however hallowed, that thwarts that rule is wrong. Surely I don’t have to point out to you that it is entirely possible for something to be legally “correct” and nonetheless “wrong”? I also contend that the Senate, as structured, is a flagrant obscenity, in that it bestows wildly unequal power upon citizens, dependent on which “state”, which polite political fiction, they happen to reside in. I also contend that Thomas Paine could kick that silly little bitch Al Hamilton’s butt! Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/150 "2004-09-03T20:55:30Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > You’re getting whooshed. > 😃 > > I’m not sure that you are, though. It’s possible Shodan really does believe in his make-believe world. Whooshing is generally frowned upon in GD and so is the accusation. Just thought you should know. **elucidator** , the Electoral College works the way it was designed to work. The Fathers knew that a mojority of votes for one candidate may not the election win. For you to assume that the Fathers failed in their attempt to support a principle that is _presumed_ is wrong. They stated what they meant and meant what they stated, knowing all along what _may_ happen. **Elvis** , with all due respect, nope again. > [@](#): > > Still nope. The promulgators of falsehoods and poor reasoning are not welcome here and never have been. The explorers of fact and thought are welcome. That’s what “Fighting Ignorance” is about, if you’ll take a look at the masthead. If the more persistently ignorant are more attracted to one end of the political spectrum, that is certainly not the fault of those on the other end or the middle. So, you’re saying that the reason for the left lean is because the left can support fact (which is what the board is all about) and the right flail about because our tenets are based on lies and poor reasoning? Explain the flourishing abundance of conservative talk radio and how it fits into your tidy little explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/151 "2004-09-03T21:14:22Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Explain the flourishing abundance of conservative talk radio and how it fits into your tidy little explanation. Uh, because no one is yelling “CITE” each time one of those right-wing media whores pulls something out of their ass? Pash ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/152 "2004-09-03T21:47:41Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > So, you’re saying that the reason for the left lean is because the left can support fact (which is what the board is all about) and the right flail about because our tenets are based on lies and poor reasoning? Explain the flourishing abundance of conservative talk radio and how it fits into your tidy little explanation. Oh, Good Lord. Seriously? It’s like asking how pro wrestling could flourish if it weren’t real. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/153 "2004-09-03T21:48:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My contention is that the rule degrades the principle that the rule is _presumed_ to support: that each citizen has a vote, that all votes are equal, and that the sole purpose of an election is to effect the will of the people, as embodied in that vote. Any mechanism, however hallowed, that thwarts that rule is wrong. Surely I don’t have to point out to you that it is entirely possible for something to be legally “correct” and nonetheless “wrong”? > > I also contend that the Senate, as structured, is a flagrant obscenity, in that it bestows wildly unequal power upon citizens, dependent on which “state”, which polite political fiction, they happen to reside in. > > I also contend that Thomas Paine could kick that silly little bitch Al Hamilton’s butt! > > Do you disagree? Yes. If I agreed that each of the United States was, in fact, a political fiction, I think your other contentions would follow. But this is where I disagree with you. Each of the states is sovereign in her own right. We live in a federal system. The states are not fictions, nor should they be relegated to mere historical bookmarks. The citizens of Massachusetts do not have the same needs as the citizens of Montana, and the laws of Vermont should not be applied to the citizens of Idaho. If it were really one-person, one-vote, one pro-rata share in the Senate as well as the House, then California’s interests will effectively dominate Wisconsin’s. Our dual sovereign system is the best way to ensure fair representation amongst the states and their citizens at a national level. You contend that there is a principle that each citizen has a vote, and that all votes are equal. No, there isn’t. Who told you that? Someone who wasn’t paying much attention in history or civics classes, I suspect. There is no such principle. Your vote is worth as much as someone else from your state, yes, but there is no principle that all votes across the country are equal in effect. That’s not the way it is; that’s NEVER been the way it is, and your belief that such a principle exists is baffling. On the Paine-Hamilton matchup… seems to me if it’s pistols at 20 paces, Hamilton’s got problems, at least if Paine attended the same marksmanship classes that Aaron Burr did. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/154 "2004-09-03T21:50:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Let’s not pretend that anything said or done in 2004 is anything besides SOP for Democrats **and** Republicans. This suggestion of yours that Democrats are clearly, undeniably, consistently in the right and Republicans are doing something beyond the pale is simply partisan spin. How incredibly self-serving. I assume we can bring this up in reference to any suggestion you make that the Republicans differ in any way from the Democrats in any other respect as well? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/155 "2004-09-03T21:54:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Still nope. The promulgators of falsehoods and poor reasoning are not welcome here and never have been. The explorers of fact and thought are welcome. That’s what “Fighting Ignorance” is about, if you’ll take a look at the masthead. If the more persistently ignorant are more attracted to one end of the political spectrum, that is certainly not the fault of those on the other end or the middle. It’s true that the “promulgators of falsehoods and poor reasoning” are unwelcome here. But so are the promulgators of conservative philosophy, even if their reasoning is solid. There are aspects to the left vs. right debate tha lend themselves to cogent analysis, and I agree that anyone spouting unsupported garbage (on either side) is quickly disposed of. But there are positions which a well-informed and well-armed debater can hold that ultimately come down to opinion, and those whose opinions fall to the right are also made to feel unwelcome here. You excluded that case when you offered your analysis. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/156 "2004-09-03T22:04:55Z")
“One man, one vote” Perhaps it was all just a dream, after all, I have your word on it. And you are a hard headed realist, are you not? Rather more like Mr. Hamilton, than Mr. Paine, would you say? “Your people, sir, are a Great Beast.” And, just as you say, the needs of Montana are different from the needs of New York. Save for food, shelter, security and love. But we have Representatives, don’t we, to attend to that? Representatives selected by population, the more people, the more political power. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that a direct embodiment of the principle you claim is fictitious? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/157 "2004-09-03T22:34:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “One man, one vote” Perhaps it was all just a dream, after all, I have your word on it. And you are a hard headed realist, are you not? Rather more like Mr. Hamilton, than Mr. Paine, would you say? “Your people, sir, are a Great Beast.” > > And, just as you say, the needs of Montana are different from the needs of New York. Save for food, shelter, security and love. But we have Representatives, don’t we, to attend to that? Representatives selected by population, the more people, the more political power. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that a direct embodiment of the principle you claim is fictitious? Correct. The House does embody the concept you highlighted. But since laws must be passed by both the House and the Senate, the overarching principle is a blend of both overall population and states’ power. There is no overarching “one man, one vote, equal power” principle. The House ensures that states with large populations have a greater voice than those small populations; the Senate ensures that the small ones are not drowned out. I bet you regret skipping civics so often now, even if it was so you could feel up Betty Lou under the bleachers during sixth period. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/158 "2004-09-03T22:41:14Z")
She majored in Political Science. So it all works out. And if it makes you feel good to imagine you are informing poor ol’ ignorant me…that’s fine too. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/159 "2004-09-03T22:47:03Z")
Yo, **Rick** , it’s a fascinating hijack and all, but I’m wondering if you’re ever going to address my post to you near the bottom of page 2, where your contention that _“Kerry’s voting record in the Senate on defense spending is not a good one”_ was debunked. Since FactCheck has updated their debunking, I’ll go ahead and post it here for you (all emphasis from original)… > [@](#): > > [Zell Miller’s Attack on Kerry: A Little Out Of Date](http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=252) > **Miller slams Kerry for opposing bombers, fighters, and helicopters. That WAS true – 20 years ago – but not lately**. > > September 3, 2004 > Modified: September 3, 2004 > > **Summary** > > Sen. Zell Miller, the Georgia Democrat who delivered the Republican National Convention’s keynote address Sept. 1, said Kerry “opposed” weapons including the B-1, B-2, F-14, F-15, and Apache helicopters. “This is the man who wants to be the Commander in Chief of our US Armed Forces?” Miller exclaimed. “Armed with what? Spitballs?” > > Miller said “Americans need to know the facts” about Kerry’s record, but his applause-getting recital is a decade or so out of date. Kerry did oppose all the weapons Miller cited when he was a candidate for the Senate in 1984, and did vote against the B-2 bomber, Trident nuclear subs and “star wars” anti-missile system more than a decade ago. Kerry also voted in three different years against the entire Pentagon budget. > > But in his nearly 20 years in office Kerry’s record has evolved. Kerry hasn’t opposed an annual Pentagon appropriation since 1996. And he’s voted for them far more often than against them. > > **Analysis** > > This is a Republican line of attack that we first took on back in February. Nothing much has changed. Miller was a bit more careful in his wording than some previous Republican critics, and avoided saying anything factually incorrect. > > > [@](#): > > > > SIDEBAR > > > > Zell Miller’s Spitball > > > > (excerpt from keynote speech to Republican National Convention) > > > > **Miller:** But Americans need to know the facts. The B-1 bomber, that Senator Kerry opposed, dropped 40 percent of the bombs in the first six months of Enduring Freedom. > > The B-2 bomber, that Senator Kerry opposed, delivered air strikes against the Taliban in Afghanistan and Hussein’s command post in Iraq. The F-14A Tomcats, that Senator Kerry opposed, shot down Gadhafi’s Libyan MiGs over the Gulf of Sidra. > > The modernized F-14D, that Senator Kerry opposed, delivered missile strikes against Tora Bora. > > The Apache helicopter, that Senator Kerry opposed, took out those Republican Guard tanks in Kuwait in the Gulf War. > > The F-15 Eagles, that Senator Kerry opposed, flew cover over our Nation’s capital and this very city after 9/11. > > I could go on and on and on – against the Patriot Missile that shot down Saddam Hussein’s scud missiles over Israel; against the Aegis air-defense cruiser; against the Strategic Defense Initiative; against the Trident missile, against, against, against. > > This is the man who wants to be the Commander in Chief of our U.S. Armed Forces? > > U.S. forces armed with what? Spit balls? > > **Kerry the 1984 Candidate** > > Miller didn’t say that Kerry voted against the weapons on the list he rattled off, only that he opposed them. And indeed Kerry did, in 1984, as a candidate for the Democratic nomination for Senate from Massachusetts. > > All the weapons cited by Miller are listed in a memo from the 1984 Kerry campaign, which we posted along with our Feb. 26 [article](http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=147) on Republican distortions of Kerry’s defense record. In that 1984 memo Kerry called for “cancellation” of the very weapons Miller cited. > > **Kerry the Senator** > > Once elected, however, Kerry’s voting record evolved. He did cast votes more than a decade ago against the B-2 Stealth Bomber in 1989, 1991 and 1992. But by 1992 even President Bush (the current incumbent’s father) was calling for cancellation of the B-2 and promising to cut military spending by 30% in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was no secret – Bush did that in his 1992 [State of the Union](http://www.c-span.org/executive/transcript.asp?cat=current_event&code=bush_admin&year=1992) address. But Miller left out that little detail. > > Miller did avoid some earlier Republican excesses, as when Miller’s fellow Georgia senator, Republican Saxby Chambliss, told reporters on Feb. 21 in a Bush campaign conference call with reporters that Kerry had a “a 32-year history of voting to cut defense programs and cut defense systems.” Since Kerry has only been in Congress for just under 20 years, the Chambliss statement was an impossibility. Republicans have also accused Kerry of voting against more mainstream weapons including the M-1 Abrams tank and the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, but have been unable to cite any specific votes against those weapons. The best they can do is point to occasional votes Kerry cast against the entire Pentagon budget, which hardly constitutes opposition to any specific weapon. > > Kerry voted against the entire Pentagon appropriations bills in [1990](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=101&session=2&vote=00319) and [1995](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=104&session=1&vote=00579). Kerry also voted against the Pentagon authorization bills (which provide authority to spend but not the actual money) in those years and also in [1996](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=104&session=2&vote=00279) . However, he hasn’t opposed an annual Pentagon appropriation since then, nor did he do so in 16 of his 19 years in office. So by the Republicans’ own measuring stick, Kerry voted for the weapons they list far more often than he voted against them. > > **From “Stupid” to "Responsible"** > > Kerry himself conceded that some of the positions he took 20 years ago were “ill-advised, and I think some of them are stupid in the context of the world we find ourselves in right now and the things that I’ve learned since then.” That was in an interview published in June, 2003 in the _Boston Globe_. “I mean, you learn as you go in life,” Kerry was quoted as saying. He added that his subsequent Senate voting record on defense has been “pretty responsible.” > > **Other Misleading Remarks** > > Note: This isn’t the only misleading claim made at the Republican convention. Miller falsely claimed “Kerry has made it clear that he would use military force only if approved by the United Nations,” when in fact Kerry has said no such thing. > > And New York Gov. George Pataki made a similarly misleading statement Sept. 2 when he implied that Kerry would “just wait for the next attack” before using military force to defend the US. > > What Kerry really said – in his own acceptance speech – is this: “I will never hesitate to use force when it is required. Any attack will be met with a swift and certain response. **I will never give any nation or international institution a veto over our national security**.” That’s the opposite of what Miller said Kerry “made clear.” > > But we’ll leave those other distortions for another day. > > **Sources** > > Zell Miller, “US Sen. Zell Miller delivers remarks at the Republican National Convention,” Federal Document Clearing House, FDCH Political Transcripts, 1 Sep 2004. > > (For other sources see our Feb. 28 article) > > **Related Articles** > > [Did Kerry Oppose Tanks & Planes? Not Lately](http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?DocID=147) > Kerry voted often against nuclear missiles and bombers in the '90s, but GOP claims that he opposed a long list of conventional weapons are overblown. > > Copyright 2004 Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania > Judgments expressed are those of [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org)’s staff, not the Annenberg Center So, just to be sure you didn’t gloss over this part… **[Kerry] hasn’t opposed an annual Pentagon appropriation since [1996], nor did he do so in 16 of his 19 years in office. So by the Republicans’ own measuring stick, Kerry voted for the weapons they list far more often than he voted against them.** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/160 "2004-09-04T01:19:12Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Yo, **Rick** , it’s a fascinating hijack and all, but I’m wondering if you’re ever going to address my post to you near the bottom of page 2, where your contention that _“Kerry’s voting record in the Senate on defense spending is not a good one”_ was debunked. Since FactCheck has updated their debunking, I’ll go ahead and post it here for you (all emphasis from original)… So, just to be sure you didn’t gloss over this part… > > **[Kerry] hasn’t opposed an annual Pentagon appropriation since [1996], nor did he do so in 16 of his 19 years in office. So by the Republicans’ own measuring stick, Kerry voted for the weapons they list far more often than he voted against them.** Yes, I intend to respond to this. But while I can settle **elucidator** ’s confusion abou the federal system extemporaneously, I am afraid the points you have raised require research. - Rick [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700.md?page=9)