# Zell Miller Speaks From the Heart **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700 "2004-09-02T02:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/161 "2004-09-04T01:39:39Z")
> [@Dio2112](#): > > I believe that a strong counter-attack by the Kerry campaign might keep him thinking, but I don’t see such a counter-attack in the cards, judging from the Kerry campaign’s strategy so far. Maybe the gloves come off in September and October. I hope so. Your quote above suggests that the Kerry base doesn’t even want to bother. > > Hence, the “pussy” comment. > [@Shayna](#): > > [Kerry] hasn’t opposed an annual Pentagon appropriation since [1996], nor did he do so in 16 of his 19 years in office. So by the Republicans’ own measuring stick, Kerry voted for the weapons they list far more often than he voted against them. As a former Republican I have to agree with **Dio2112** in that were I a swing voter sitting on the fence, Zell’s accusations of Kerry wanting to cut so many military programs would have been giving me second thoughts. Especially as the Republican platform seems to be based around a very offensive orientated foreign policy, determined to strike “them” over there before they reach our soil. Without strong refutation, repetition of distortion leads many to believe these are the facts. I’d be concerned about these “facts”. In addition to **Shayna’s** retort, the great irony was that the next speaker after Miller, Dick Cheney, as Secretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush authored proposals for the largest military cuts in the last 20 years. It included all of the cuts that Kerry was accused of and more. For instance Cheney proposed disbanding part of the Army’s Fourth Infantry Division, the unit that captured Saddam Hussein. The Pubs love to bring up many of the same military cuts in a bill that Kerry proposed and they make a big deal of the fact that he couldn’t get more than a few Senators to sign on. In fact, to my understanding, that bill was an alternative to Cheney’s for reducing the spending cuts Cheney proposed. In any case, the cuts were obviously popular at the time. Yet will Kerry mention this? Not enough to get any press. The Dems haven’t seemed to set this issue into it’s proper perspective. In any case, both Kerry and Cheney were trying to be fiscally responsible in the post-cold war climate. I’d think this problem could have been neutralized months ago. They could have made it a made it a three week campaign issue and it would likely have faded away. While I think it’s honorable for Kerry to try and run a campaign without much mudslinging, I believe that a challenger has no choice but to forcefully tear into an incumbent’s record. How else do they make the case that they can do better? I also believe many conservative swing voters would respect a strong attack by Kerry in his own defense. He has much factual stuff that he could cite and could encourage the doubtful to follow up on, but will he? We’ll know if he argues against Bush’s record effectively only if the press picks up on it; then he’ll likely add a couple percentage points in the polls. On the brighter side: an incumbent does not need to go out of their way to discredit their opponent if they have a good record to run on. One of the benefits of being an office holder is that one can simply stand on one’s record and act as if they’re above the fray. George Bush is not that candidate. When an incumbent engages on a smear campaign, it indicates real deficits in their record of service. And who can deny that Bush et al are engaging in some serious mudslinging? I think that for all their bluster, this reveals they know they are on thin ice. Also, Kerry has a history of breaking out in the home stretch of his campaigns, I hope that a well measured attack on his opponent’s time in office will be part of his strategy for doing so in this race. Factoring this in with his attempts at inclusiveness in his run for the presidency may ultimately make him seem to the undecided as if he’s already assumed the role of a successful commander-in-chief . ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/162 "2004-09-04T02:50:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I intend to respond to this. > > But while I can settle **elucidator** ’s confusion abou the federal system extemporaneously, I am afraid the points you have raised require research. > > - Rick Fair enough. But in case you aren’t familiar with [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org), they’re the “Snopes” of political rhetoric. > [@](#): > > We are a nonpartisan, nonprofit, “consumer advocate” for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics. We monitor the factual accuracy of what is said by major U.S. political players in the form of TV ads, debates, speeches, interviews, and news releases. Our goal is to apply the best practices of both journalism and scholarship, and to increase public knowledge and understanding. > > [http://factcheck.org/MiscReports.aspx?docID=70](http://factcheck.org/MiscReports.aspx?docID=70) More research than what they’ve already done will undoubtedly prove unnecessary. But I anxiously await your reply. And as **Snag** points out above, there’s an appalling irony to your boy Zell thrashing Kerry for his _opinions_ before he was even elected to the Senate, while extolling the virtues of this administration, which includes one of the biggest military slashers in 2 decades. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/163 "2004-09-04T03:00:09Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Explain the flourishing abundance of conservative talk radio and how it fits into your tidy little explanation. Only if you explain back to me why the same ‘busy rich people who couldn’t be bothered with message boards’ you alluded to just a few posts ago, all of a sudden have all sorts of time to listen to rightwing blowhards supported by nothing but their own distortion of facts. Drinking the Kool-Aid is not an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/164 "2004-09-04T03:49:31Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > **Shodan** , I sincerely think that the Dems are just pissed off because, for once, the Republicans are finally willing to put up a fight. Well, at least we’re pushing back. It has been the custom for a while to just accept the attacks by the Dems but now that we’re catching them, spinning them, and throwing them back in their faces they seem to not like that. All these years they fought their battles with feelgoodism, emotion and scare tactics. Now when some of those tactics are being used against them they call “unfair”. > The Evidence being that most of the more vocal liberals/democrats on these boards jump on every Reblican/conservative that they can. Hate, slander, name calling and pittings galore. A vile bunch they’ve turned out to be. I bet there hasn’t gone a day that there isn’t a new thread started about some evil Pubbie. > The anti-right crowd around here is WAY more hateful and boisterous than the the anti-left crowd. When was the last time you saw a vitriolic pile-on from the right? I see ‘em comin’ from the left all the time. And you guys claim to hold the higher moral ground. Ha. I think I’ve just gone through the looking glass. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/165 "2004-09-04T04:16:34Z")
That would be the place where phrases like “catastrophic success” have meaning, where GeeDubya stands as Churchill. When come back, bring Bizarro pie. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/166 "2004-09-04T04:18:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … > But while I can settle **elucidator** ’s confusion abou the federal system … You know, I can’t shake the feeling that he’s expecting me to thank him. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/167 "2004-09-04T04:23:35Z")
**Bricker** , judging by what I’ve seen you write here, I am shocked and amazed that such a jingoistic, vicious, evil, and just downright nasty speech would affect you so deeply. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/168 "2004-09-04T04:52:20Z")
I wish I were a disgruntled Democrat. Then I could say “I’m as mad as Zell, and I’m not going to take it any more!” ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/169 "2004-09-04T05:35:26Z")
Scylla! You’re back!? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/170 "2004-09-04T05:37:56Z")
Yeah. I missed you guys. Now about that bikini picture… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/171 "2004-09-04T05:46:25Z")
Oh yes. Well, if Kerry wins in '04, I’ll rustle up a bikini pic for y’all, how’s that? 😉 😃 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/172 "2004-09-04T05:52:55Z")
_gulp_ Geeks Unite! Hack The Voting Ataris! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/173 "2004-09-04T05:55:32Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > Oh yes. Well, if Kerry wins in '04, I’ll rustle up a bikini pic for y’all, how’s that? 😉 😃 Well if that isn’t a good reason to vote democrat, I don’t know what is! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/174 "2004-09-04T06:08:55Z")
I’ll alert the media. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/175 "2004-09-04T12:32:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s true that the “promulgators of falsehoods and poor reasoning” are unwelcome here. > > But so are the promulgators of conservative philosophy, even if their reasoning is solid. > … > You excluded that case when you offered your analysis. Just as you excluded any examples that might support your assertion to the contrary. Or is that just a whine? Even, that is, considering that you thought it worth taking time away from supporting this earlier, smellier assertion of yours, that you’ve already been challenged to provide facts for: “_Kerry’s voting record in the Senate on defense spending is not a good one._” Or is the request that you back up what you say an example of conservatives being unwelcome? I’m sure we can agree about the \*\*Gaudere \*\* bikini pic, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/176 "2004-09-05T03:55:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Just as you excluded any examples that might support your assertion to the contrary. Or is that just a whine? > > Even, that is, considering that you thought it worth taking time away from supporting this earlier, smellier assertion of yours, that you’ve already been challenged to provide facts for: “_Kerry’s voting record in the Senate on defense spending is not a good one._” Or is the request that you back up what you say an example of conservatives being unwelcome? > > I’m sure we can agree about the \*\*Gaudere \*\* bikini pic, though. No, **Shayna** ’s request is perfectly reasonable, and I’ve already committed to responding. But, as I said then, I expect to devote a bit of time to research before I respond. This business about why the SDMB leans left required no research and not a huge amount of time. I don’t understand your first sentence. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/177 "2004-09-05T13:34:53Z")
It’s clear enough, if perhaps uncomfortable. You claim that the board is less welcoming to conservatives than liberals. You can either back that statement up with examples or have it dismissed as whining, your choice. I wouldn’t even have mentioned it if you weren’t complaining about my so-called “exclusion” of that possibility, ya know. It’s nice that you’ve found time to post, twice now, that you’re going to support what you’ve said to **Shayna** , but it would help your credibility a lot more to actually do it. I look forward to reading what you’ve found. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/178 "2004-09-05T15:07:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s clear enough, if perhaps uncomfortable. You claim that the board is less welcoming to conservatives than liberals. You can either back that statement up with examples or have it dismissed as whining, your choice. I wouldn’t even have mentioned it if you weren’t complaining about my so-called “exclusion” of that possibility, ya know. > > It’s nice that you’ve found time to post, twice now, that you’re going to support what you’ve said to **Shayna** , but it would help your credibility a lot more to actually do it. I look forward to reading what you’ve found. I’m working on enjoying my holiday weekend. However, it’s fair to demand examples in both cases. If I have not backed up my assertion that it’s fair to consider Kerry weaker on defense than Bush by Tuesday, I will withdraw the charge. The statement that “the board is less welcoming to conservatives,” is a little less susceptible to rigorous analysis, as it depends almost completely on the subjective impressions that conservative posters have. And I’ll even acknowledge that lately, the number of conservative posters seems to have grown a bit. To give one example: over the past three years, there have been uncountably many Bush-bashing threads, in which the numbers of people piling on to criticize the President has been substantial. This was in contrast to the mood of the country, in which the President had good poll numbers. Even today, the Board is heavilt polarized in favor of Kerry; the country is split roughly 50-50, wth a slight edge to Bush. That alone is, I believe, sufficient observation to raise the reasonable conclusion that conservatives might feel outnumbered and unwelcome here. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/179 "2004-09-05T15:28:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I wish I were a disgruntled Democrat. Then I could say “I’m as mad as Zell, and I’m not going to take it any more!” Do you mean “mad” as in “hatter?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700/180 "2004-09-05T15:41:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m working on enjoying my holiday weekend. > > However, it’s fair to demand examples in both cases. If I have not backed up my assertion that it’s fair to consider Kerry weaker on defense than Bush by Tuesday, I will withdraw the charge. Good morning, **Rick**. If you’ll forgive me, the above is not what you said, not what I proved otherwise, and not what you’re being asked to support. Once again, you claimed, _“Kerry’s voting record in the Senate on defense spending is not a good one.”_ John Kerry has a 19+ year record as a Senator. George Bush has had only 3½ years as President. It wouldn’t even be possible to compare their actual records on “defense spending.” Especially since Bush has presided during a _war_, where defense spending would naturally be higher than in times of peace. Not to mention Bush has never been in a position to “vote” on defense spending. No, either John Kerry does not have a good record on _voting_ regarding defense spending during his time serving in the Senate, which is what you asserted, or he does. [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org) did their homework and concluded that Kerry voted in favor of Pentagon appropriations in 16 of his 19 years in the senate. Ergo, his voting record in the Senate on defense spending _is_ a good one, contrary to your claim. Enjoy your holiday! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zell-miller-speaks-from-the-heart/262700.md?page=10)