# Zen, Motorcycles, and Phaedrus **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 28, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418 "2004-09-28T03:22:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/1 "2004-09-28T03:22:00Z")
I’m about 120 pages into “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.” I was baffled at first about who “Phaedrus” was. Of course, I’ve figured it out in the context of the book at this point. But what’s the reference I’m missing here? A Greek god? I don’t remember having read about Phaedrus in any other place, so I know I’m probably missing a lot of the allusion. And the reference to him in the book as a 20th century character doesn’t help me track this down. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/2 "2004-09-28T03:25:22Z")
Finish the book and then come back here. I had to read it twice before I figured it out. ---
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/3 "2004-09-28T03:29:30Z")
I’ve figured out who Phaedrus is in the context of the book…i.e., what unfolds at the end of Part I (I won’t throw any spoilers in here in case I’m NOT the last person in the universe to read this book). What I DON’T know is who Phaedrus was in any other context…what particular god with what qualities he has chosen to represent this character. Does that make any sense? Or is the answer still to finish the book? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/4 "2004-09-28T04:10:24Z")
[Phaedrus](http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html). ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/5 "2004-09-28T04:13:58Z")
**Phaedrus** has a few different connotations on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/6 "2004-09-28T04:16:36Z")
IMO it’s best read when you’re a college feshman or sophmore. Re-reading it in your 40’s or later is like listening to very early Simon and Garfunkel. Well crafted, well sung, but the lyrics and concepts (and observations in the case of Z&TAOMM) are usually pretty sophomoric in hindsight, but I repeat, it’s an excellent book and mental stretching exercise for young minds starting out. I think this Amazon review pretty much hits it on the head. > [@](#): > > It has been decades since Robert Pirsig’s “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” became a best seller, but you can still find a copy in the philosophy section of any chain book store, which would strongly suggest it has achieved the status of a modern day classic in this age of ephemeral phenomena and the eminently forgettable. In a number of ways, it is an exceptional and unusual book. > > After one has sorted out the different elements, however, separating the personal from the more objective and the entertaining story from the philosophical ideas, Pirsig’s solutions seem somewhat weak and one-sided. Because he is never really able to let go of rationality-- except when he carried it to extremes and became mentally ill-- he never finds spirituality. Instead, he finds a concept which lies between the two, and which unites them and combines them to a certain degree, and he grabs on to this concept and builds his philosophy around it, making it the centerpiece of the ideas which he offers up to the reader. This concept is the idea of Quality-- Quality being a combination of right mindfulness and knowledge, of attitude and technique, of values and tools. > > When a philosopher capitalizes a word, both the reader and the philosopher himself should be wary. Quality is a Platonic-like Idea and Pirsig is something of an Idealist who believes that a motorcycle is “primarily a mental phenomenon”. But as far as connecting Zen and motorcycle maintenance, or transcending spiritual consciousness and technical rationality, the concept of Quality does not pass inspection, make the grade, or win the blue ribbon. Pirsig failed to find the synthesis he was looking for, because he didn’t really understand spirituality. His book talks a great deal about motorcycles and very little about Zen. His Phaedrus studied Eastern philosophy in India for a number of years, but never meditated because “it made no sense to him”. After gaining a disappointing intellectual acquaintance with Buddhism, something he could have just as well have obtained from a book, he returned to the U.S., not much the wiser for his experience. Philosophical Phaedrus may have had zenophobia. Then he turned himself into a sado-maso-sophist, asking and answering questions under the hot lights, tightening the mental thumbscrews on his head, and slowly racking his mind on a torturous metaphysical system until he broke, he confessed, he spilled the secret to himself, which was that he didn’t really know all those things he thought he knew. ---
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/7 "2004-09-28T11:49:25Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > [Phaedrus](http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html). Thanks, that’s just what I needed! Don’t know why I didn’t find it myself. As for “Zen” having flaws, they’re obvious to my post-college, 34-year-old mind, even without a class to point them out. But I’m still having fun reading some “classics” that I haven’t previously covered. And this is still a pretty decent read, in spite of its shortcomings. I had a great read of some classic Nabokov recently too…I enjoy covering this stuff by myself very much. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/8 "2004-09-28T18:48:10Z")
A word to the wise, however: Posting the name “Phaedrus” on the SDMB has a way of raising hackles in much the same way you would by uttering the name “Voldemort” in the Leaky Cauldron. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/9 "2004-09-28T19:20:38Z")
Persig’s sequal to Zen - **Lila** - was not very good. Written 20 years later, he could have done much better but I think the bottle had alot to do with it… ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zen-motorcycles-and-phaedrus/266418/10 "2004-09-28T20:08:44Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Finish the book and then come back here. > > I had to read it twice before I figured it out. When come back, read book!