# Zenster: wholesale nonsense, bigotry, demagoguery etc **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 18, 2001, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176 "2001-10-18T07:31:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/1 "2001-10-18T07:31:32Z")
I am very disturbed that **Zenster** has been advocating (and veiling) what may only be interpreted as pseudo-genocidal measures, such as his suggestions to slaughter innocent civilians, etc. Zenster’s bigoted statements and ranting range from suggesting that Islam/Moslems in general are inherently violent (but I did not quite get what point he was trying to make there), to titling a touchy thread, “Let them drink oil”—somewhat amusing, but not very culturally sensitive in these times of cultural tension. This is an issue of fighting ignorance in those who lack critical information but have strong opinions and categorical approaches. Below are some samples of the inflammatory crap Zenster has been posting since September 11. I didn’t have time to comb all the volumes of long-winded, diffuse, and inelegantly verbose prose it satisfies you to churn out, Zenster, but I think the below provide ample evidence that you are far from an objective or informed authority on the subjects being discussed. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=86638) Zenster says we should bomb all Afghan cities and **“Make the Afghani people suffer for their complicity in such an atrocity”**. Emphases mine. [Over here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=86601) he says, among other very suspicious things, that “decimation” of countries that harbor terrorists “is the order of the day”. He also says, rather genocidally: > [@](#): > > They need to be told, “Do it enough times and your entire gene pool will perish from the face of the earth.” Apart from the unpleasant mixed metaphor above we have, from the same link: > [@](#): > > Countries need to learn that letting scumbag murderers get their hands on the tiller is a physically painful experience. That afterlife in paradise is hard to appreciate while you’re slowly starving to death. Steady decimation of the population from which they recruit they’re new little thugs is a start. A message of; “Keep it up and you’re out of the gene pool.” There is little more annoying than an arrogant and uninformed person with a rudimentary grasp of formal language, a love of diffuseness, and a soapbox. [Zenster on negotiation and honoring agreements:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87309) > [@](#): > > Let them hand over Osama bin Laden. There’s so many on the Christmas list that they will never be able to give them all up to us. It matters not one whit. _ **Afghanistan** _ screwed the pooch and now it’s time to pay the piper. They need to be crushed, plain and simple, preferably painfully. [emphasis mine] [Here Zenster discusses how to treat _ **suspected** _ terrorists](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87429): “No expensive court case, no dragged out trial. Kill them now.” Heh, Zenster the Vigilante, bludgeoning people to death using lengthy and unsound diatribes—would make a good comic strip. Anyway, Zenster continues with this comment: > [@](#): > > I further advocate that all Taleban governments be deposed as significant threats to our nation’s security. By their very nature they allow for no middle ground in this issue and should be addressed as intransigent hostile elements. What _are_ the “Taleban governments”? And do you have ANY regard for the US’s well-being and long-term standing in the international community? Do you understand why these things you suggest are generally undesirable _for the US itself_? [The stuff here is extreme even for Zenster’s standards of the past month:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87459) > [@](#): > > Our track record in the world at large is good enough where a slight degree of overkill will not get us any less well thought of than we are already. I would venture to say that the majority of Muslims who are nearly if not equally as horrified as any of us are would be little shocked by near obliteration of the entire Afghani nation in reprisal. Emphasis mine. But it gets better. From the thread this demagogue mockingly titled [Afghanistan: Our people have suffered so much:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87067) > [@](#): > > “Suffered enough?” The suffering has yet to begin. Maybe when we are done with them the Afghani people will understand the true meaning of suffering [snip] > > An example must be made of the Afghani nation so that any other country even contemplating such dastardly deeds will stop in their tracks and reconsider. This was an act of war and it must be countered with extreme violence such that there are no illusions about the price of such an atrocity. The problem with demagogues is that they seldom know what they are talking about. You, Zenster, are very passionate about broad violence, but you demonstrate repeatedly that you are unable to comprehend that the Taleban and the Afghan people, as well as terrorism and war, are _discrete_. They are not the same damn things. They are not equivalent. When someone pointed out the obvious, Zenster replied with this stunning display of poor mental performance: > [@](#): > > By living, we must also take sides. The Afghani people sided with their Taliban government by allowing them to rule without mass rebellion. Their suffering will be the direct result of their willingness to abide such willful ignorance. Now that’s what I call an _extremely_ intimate embrace with ignorance. It’s also reminiscent of Bin Laden’s assertions on the US and its citizens. I also note that **Biggirl** spotted your bigotry right away and challenged you over it. Your response was about as valid as the nonsense you have been posting in your discussion with me: pretzel logic, ethos and pathos by the bucket, oversimplification fallacies, false causes, false analogies, guilt by association, not to mention red herrings, slippery slopes, quite a few non sequiturs, and enough WAGs to slay an strong man. You are a mess. Biggirl responded as I did, by posting a few examples of your silliness. Her version is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87067&pagenumber=2). Notice also, compared to the nonsense you have been posting for a month, **Tomndebb** ’s much more concise and infinitely wiser objections to your post a little after Biggirl’s. **Triskadecamus** ’s reply to you is also noteworthy, as is **Tamerlane** ’s and several others. Not that you were able to address their points in a valid manner (as others have pointed out before me), or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Proceeding with that same thread, Zenster seemed to realize how inappropriate his earlier comments were, and he did some furious and undignified back-pedalling without really changing the nature of his offensive remarks. Well, Zenster, until you **retract** your several obtuse and uninformed comments you will forgive me for rejecting your poor attempts at qualification. And we can see very clearly in another thread [how Zenster feels about retractions while he is busy spreading misinformation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88156), in this case suggesting that the US is donating money to the Taleban. It’s not even worth quoting, it’s just a flat denial to a valid request for retraction. So what is it with Zenster’s highly fallacious and insistent arguments? Does this guy understand that he not only makes an ass of himself, but that his uninformed assertions cause nothing but tension and irritation? Even worse, I hesitate to think of new readers who may actually be influenced by Zenster’s elaborate posts. Others pointed out and shot down several of his glaring errors in some of the threads above, and it seems evident that Zenster is not in command of the facts and that he not only embraces ignorance, he gives it a voice. You should consider, Zenster, what the qualities of Bin Laden are: stubborn ignorance, forceful zeal, and a desire to get in people’s faces. In his sick mind, Bin Laden wants to make the world a better place when he utters such outrageous statements as “all Americans must die”, and “it is the duty of Americans to rebel against their governments, or they will die.” Well, I am sorry to say that your bullshit comes very close to sounding like a Bin Laden speech. You had best apologize for the several offensive and bigoted remarks you made in the last five weeks as soon as possible. On the topic of [Zenster’s sensationalist debate tactics](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88589): Zenster claims that “if Osama bin Laden was able to kill continuously at the rate he did in New York, he would surpass Hitler in just a few months”. Fortunately this WAG was challenged by **mhendo** , who also pointed out “you don’t do your overall credibility any good with absurd comparisons like this”. On a slight change of topic, you posted [Why No Excommunication?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88994), meaning why are Bin Laden or the Taleban not excommunicated by other Muslims? I shake my head in disbelief, first at the gaping holes in the knowledge of one who writes as if he knows so much, then at yet another attempt to backpedal after **Tomndebb** pointed out the obvious. After that, several posters pointed out ways in which Bin Laden and the Taleban _have_ been shunned or at least marginalized. Not that it prevented you from gaining any perspective in a later reincarnation of your nonsense in your masterpiece thread, [Muslim Solidarity and its Implications](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=92355). What does Zenster answer when asked [What if Bin laden is not the guy?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87199). The answer: “It matters not”. Please see **Rickjay** ’s refutation of such a silly assertion. I am pleased, however, that you did not try to back-pedal or qualify your answer. In the appropriately named [Screw Justice](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=91859) thread Zenster responds to a poster who was concerned that the process of achieving justice might also involve injustice: > [@](#): > > So, because the cowardly Taleban hide themselves among women and children, we are being unjust in the extermination of this threat to all humanity. > > Your reasoning does not stand up. The only injustice is that our fighting men and women have to bear such an insult as yours. **Stoid** ’s reasoning stands up just fine Zenster, it is your reasoning that needs a heavy-duty wheelchair. As is evident from that discussion, you are more interested in your territorial pissing–leaving your mark of “widsom” all over these boards–than you are in treating seriously an argument with which you disagree. In [The Attacks Have Begun](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=91576&pagenumber=2), **Jshore** rightly criticizes Zenster’s foam-at-the-mouth solutions. Zenster then takes offense and says “Just out of curiosity, jshore, what is your solution to this mess? I don’t recall you positing any grand scheme. Poking holes is much easier than formulating reasonable constructs.” Check out the rest of the exchange: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > > True enough, Zenster. But see, the difference between you and me seems to be that when I don’t have a viable solution (_or don’t have enough information to be sure of what a viable solution might be_), I don’t go and propose one anyway. (And particularly one that involves summarily executing of a whole group of people, even if that group subscribes to an ideology that I find totally fucked.) You don’t seem bound by such concerns. [Emphasis mine] > > _Originally posted by Zenster_ > What do you call the atrocity in New York? Was it not a form of summary execution? You better believe it was. “You don’t seem bound by such concerns.” You better be-fricking-lieve it. I let this bullshit speak for itself. Zenster then goes on to rape the reasoning process: > [@](#): > > Fine then, what is the right thing to do? You say you do not know. Then how is it possible that you know WHAT IS NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO? It should be clear to anyone that simply because we don’t know the value of X does not mean we do not know the value of Y. But I can see why Zenster’s posts are so wacked if he thinks nothing of posting such reasoning for all to see and deride. Zenster goes to great lengths to try to come across as rational and informed, but an inspection of his posts suggests he is merely an angry and outspoken dilettante. The most obvious giveaway—even more obvious than his ponderous use of language—is the deep-seated conviction with which he posts his nonsense. In the thread where I first challenged Zenster, Muslim Solidarity and its Implications, he made these blanket statements among many others: > [@](#): > > The Arab nations should be held accountable for this willing solidarity with such murderers > [@](#): > > Arab nations are reaping the whirlwind of discontent that they have sown among their own people in order to propel their own petty agendas. He champions these and other assertions even though he is unable to prove that Arab nations _are_ engaging in solidarity with the Taleban. In fact, he is unable to prove pretty much anything, his standard reply being that it is all the fault of the Saudis or the Pakistanis or some other group of people. What nonsense, Zenster. Your insufficient grasp of formal language can’t hide that you are simply trying to incite violence for the sake of your personal feelings. This is the worst kind of demagoguery. And for the sake of all readers please pick up some [Orwell on language](http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html). Please pay particular attention to what he has to say on pretentious diction and phrases, and spare us pain in the future. Your clumsy writing style actually detracts credibility from your posts, and I mean that in all sincerity. I could post **plenty** more. I haven’t even discussed Zenster’s bristling debating techniques, but this thread is long enough and–with the volume of litter Zenster has been leaving on these boards in the last five weeks–that would require a fair bit of time. He does seem fond of _ad hominem_ attacks, but those discredit him, not me. **Zenster’s attempts to portray me as a supporter of the Taleban, a hater of America, and an opponent of democracy are reprehensible** , but I will not address those here because I suspect that, when fired up, Zenster has little else in his toolkit to pull out in discussion with someone who does not accept his categorical crap (the offences mentioned are [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=92355). I’d like to close with a quote from \*\*pldennison \*\*(from this thread) that I thought was most appropriate: > [@](#): > > _originally posted by pldennison_ > I want you to pay attention, Zenster, and I want you to pay attention real close, because you have now spent a week slinging misinformation around the Straight Dope, and I for one have gotten really goddamned sick of it. Ignorance is forgiveable, because it can be corrected; willful ignorance is not only unforgiveable–around here, it is anathema. [snip] > > You’ve spread misinformation about Afghanistan, about Saudi Arabia, about the United Arab Emirates, and now this. You need to step back and think about what you’re posting before you post it, and **look things up** , or you run the risk of making a touchy situation much, much worse. Look things up, Zenster, and please learn the value of retractions and apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/2 "2001-10-18T08:01:37Z")
Sorry, it looks like Explorer lost a piece of my post somewhere. Here is the end again: I would like to close with a quote by **pldennison** that I thought was most appropriate: > [@](#): > > _originally posted by pldennison_ > I want you to pay attention, Zenster, and I want you to pay attention real close, because you have now spent a week slinging misinformation around the Straight Dope, and I for one have gotten really goddamned sick of it. Ignorance is forgiveable, because it can be corrected; willful ignorance is not only unforgiveable–around here, it is anathema. [snip] > > You’ve spread misinformation about Afghanistan, about Saudi Arabia, about the United Arab Emirates, and now this. You need to step back and think about what you’re posting before you post it, and **look things up** , or you run the risk of making a touchy situation much, much worse. Look things up, Zenster, and please learn the value of retractions and apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/3 "2001-10-18T16:08:50Z")
Wow. That has to rank right up there with the most thoroughly researched and annotated rants I’ve ever read! Damn thing practically needs a bibliography and an index! I’d also like to applaud the mostly restrained way you have taken ol’ Zen to task for what he has been saying, and have not seized this as an opportunity to accuse him of goat felching, call him a cum stain, or in other unattractive ways do your best to humiliate him. Zenster has always struck me as a pretty good guy. [sub](He’s a great guy when it comes to food…he gave me the world’s best recipe for ribs. He has, in my mind, one of the places of honor on the Dope for his recipe threads and most importantly, the Index.[/sub] But you have done a good job showing that, well, Zen needs to calm down. Any man who can get both me and \*\* pldennison \*\* scolding him is obviously doing something wrong. In this case, it’s calling for the death of innocent people to assuage his own anger, and doing so with bad information to boot. Zenster, honey… maybe you just oughta just take a break from discussing this? It does not appear to be winning friends and influencing people. stoid ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/4 "2001-10-18T16:21:17Z")
[reading]"Hey, I remember that thread.[checks calendar] Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/5 "2001-10-18T18:18:48Z")
Wow. I have actually been avoiding **Zenster** ’s clutch of 9/11-related threads, because I assumed that they all would feature the same mild “The terrorists are bad, let’s drop a few bombs” feelings that I and most people seem to be able to get behind, and I didn’t feel like I was going to learn anything special. But I guess I’ll have to dig into them after all. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/6 "2001-10-18T18:42:59Z")
Well done, **Abe**. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/7 "2001-10-18T19:30:34Z")
Thanks especially for the Orwell link. I should read it at least once per week. ---
**Author:** ![choosybeggar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@choosybeggar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choosybeggar)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/8 "2001-10-18T19:37:27Z")
I think **Zen** wishes for an easy solution to a problem he vastly oversimplifies. We all have strong emotions regarding the events of 9/11. Clearly, these can create situations where one ignores life’s complex realities. I hope this thread fosters an environment where **Zen** can cool down rather than crash and burn. C’mon **Zen,** really _think_ about what you’re advocating. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/9 "2001-10-18T21:38:21Z")
Zenster has undergone a bit of an emotional reformation. But on the bright side, he may reevaluate his views on rap as a valuable art form. Quoth he in an [old thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=61036): I eschew all violence be it in real life, rap, literature or “slasher” and “snuff” flicks along with other types of pornography in general for the undesirable mental images that they implant. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/10 "2001-10-18T22:28:07Z")
hijack bin Laden is ignorant? For some reason I always thought what made him frightening was his distinct lack of ignorance. He may be playing on other people’s ignorance, but the man himself is certainly FAR from ignorant. /hijack Erek ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/11 "2001-10-19T00:34:54Z")
That OP was about 100 times longer than my maximum limit, beyond which I will not read. You, sir, apparently care deeply about your point, whatever it may be. Bravo. Or, possibly, fuck you, depending on which side I would agree with if I were to read your post. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/12 "2001-10-19T00:46:46Z")
I completely agree with Smeghead, unless his response to your OP, had he read it, would have been different from what my response would have been, had _I_ read it, in which case, not only would I disagree with him, but I would call him names and get in a nasty screaming argument with him. ---
**Author:** ![dunne\_u.wurrie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@dunne\_u.wurrie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dunne_u.wurrie)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/13 "2001-10-19T01:10:14Z")
I disagree with Smeghead and Manduck completely, whatever it is they may have said. Frankly, their posts were much too short to be of any interest to me, so I didn’t read them. It’d be like eating just one potato chip. Nice OP. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/14 "2001-10-19T01:38:38Z")
All that research, and you miss mentioning that in the “$43 million for the Taliban” thread he advocates starvation of Afghanistanis as a method of foreign policy. You lose 5 points for that. Also, when he advocates holding Muslim nations accountable for siding with murderers like bin Laden, he has a point if you change it to something along the lines of the _governments_ of _some_ Muslim countries (and certain Muslim religious leaders) should be held accountable for tacitly approving evil done by other Muslims as opposed to good done by secular nations. Somewhere in there were some valid points about the notion of Muslim solidarity. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/15 "2001-10-19T01:42:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manduck \* > \*\*I completely agree with Smeghead, unless his response to your OP, had he read it, would have been different from what my response would have been, had _I_ read it, in which case, not only would I disagree with him, but I would call him names and get in a nasty screaming argument with him. \*\* Well, then, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Or to agree. Or not. I have a headache now. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/16 "2001-10-19T02:33:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > Howevermuch the Nation of Islam did not attack us, elements of the Afghani nation did. The Taliban has long found refuge in Afghanistan and if bin Ladin is the mastermind of this monstrous act then the entire nation may find its way to the collective woodshed. > > This is not out of hatred for the Afghani people. This is not out of hatred for the Islamic faith. This is merely out of the need to find criminal mass murderers and bring them either to justice or summary execution. Those who obstruct prosecution of this misdeed are accomplices and should expect to catch some of the backlash. > > This is not about religion, race or national origin. This is about mass murder and the extermination of its perpetrators. If it is not done now, this entire calamity will be repeated until it is stopped by force at a later date. There is no negotiating with this sort of madman. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Zenster \* > …Here, the similarities to Japan’s WWII record spring easily to mind. Far too many posters have been mentioning nuclear reprisal not to once again condemn its contemplation. The thought of pursuant terrorist nuclear retribution is too hideous to consider. But any demonstration of force will have to be on an overwhelming scale. It literally required two nuclear blasts to persuade Japan to surrender. Perhaps the demonstration of a gasoline vapor bomb_ in a remote corner of their country might bring them to their senses. > > - (Non-atomic bomb capable of nuclear size explosions.) > > One of the only other ideas that might work is **Badtz** ’s use of video taped, protracted torture. Sufficiently agonizing repercussions can have a deterrent effect. This one is almost too reprehensible to consider, but it is also one of the only credible threats to someone contemplating such acts. It is a certain measure of my own digust and revulsion that such things have even entered into consideration. However, if access to paradise is through a door that enters a year long corridor of extreme torture, second thoughts might be had…\*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > Believe me, I wish all this were all otherwise, I truly do. I just happen to know that it is not. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > …I do not advocate revenge. I do not advocate wholesale slaughter. I _do_ advocate calculated reprisal in such a fashion that anyone considering a repetition of last Tuesday’s events will think more than twice before proceeding… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > Please read my other threads and you will see that I do not advocate immediate slaughter of all Afghani civilians. As mentioned, one of my earliest suggestions was to bomb cities that were given the chance to evacuate. I have also routinely eschewed advocating the use of nuclear bombs… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > How many times do I have to type this? > > I do not advocate genocide. I do not hate the Afghani people. I do not hate the Muslim religion. I do understand that there has been nothing but turmoil in Afghanistan. I do know that we used to finance Osama bin Laden. I also do know that nothing short of total obliteration will stop these maggots… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > **…Do any of you think that I enjoy espousing such violence? Do any of you think that I get my jollies anticipating the slaughter of people, no matter where they live?..** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > …While there have been many well thought out criticisms to many of my oversights or misstatements, very few _if any_ of those same people provide any sort of viable solutions to the problems at hand. Keep in mind that there are solutions, elsewise we are faced with eventual extinction at the hands of terrorists and that outcome is entirely unacceptable to me and many others. > > So, what are the solutions? I think that most military advisers and many of the people here as well would agree that legal prosecution does not have sufficient pulsure. If not, then what does have the needed impact to enforce the will of the civilized world upon those who willingly disobey the fundamental tenets of honorable conduct? > > Please note how more than a few of those in the second list either recognize or fully support actions that they know will result in the deaths of Afghani civilians. People continue to accuse me of advocating genocide. As I understand the term, it is related to the unabated and intentional extermination of an entire race or population. Nowhere have I suggested such a thing. The closest I have even come to saying such a thing is in another thread, where I suggested that for each attack upon us we level another one of their cities. Yes, after enough attacks upon us a vast majority of their population will be dead or dying, but nowhere have I supported the immediate and across the board slaughter of the entire Afghan citizenry. By suggesting that the Afghani people will come to know the meaning of suffering, I am merely stating the obvious, namely that subsequent to our military reprisal there will be cause for regret among their populace…\*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > Thanks **PW** , I am always happy to keep this thread on a factual footing wherever possible. > > At this point, I would like to give some of you an insight into just how much this atrocity has affected me. > > I got home from spending a month in Taiwan on September third. My home is curently being remodeled. I have not bothered to plug in my television since that time and wonder when I ever shall. Merely seeing a few clips on a television at my job of the jet liner being intentionally flown into the building have left me more horrified than even my own verbose personality can express with words alone. Suffice to say that I have still not plugged in my television and do not know when I will. > > This has made it more than a little easy to be misinformed (either partially or completely, depending upon who you are talking to). To those who are shocked by the supposedly alien lifeform inhabiting my body, I say welcome to reality. I am a very protective person of the country that I have to come ever deeper to love as I have gained appreciation for what we have won here in America. > > We have come too far and sacrificed too much to have a handful of tyrannical maniacs plunge us into a police state in order to adequately protect ourselves from what must be exterminated by harsh military prosecution instead. Short and sweet; we must kill these bastards by whatever means possible before they are allowed to commit even one more atrocity like last Tuesday’s. > > What happened in New York must never happen again. I will go so far as to say the the use of nuclear weapons is almost preferable to ever having such a thing happen again. A threshold has been crossed, the veritable Rubicon for our military. A new and uglier day has dawned on this world where we can no longer to have the least shred of complacency. Such horrors now must be countered with previously unacceptable methods as we learn anew how to deal with those utterly bereft of morals and honor. > > I do not think that this will be easy or fun. I _do_ think that the world will emerge a better place for all of the suffering that is sure to take place in the coming months and years as we ferret out the last remenants of such scum as the world has never known. > > Please do not ascribe any of the worthy tenets of Islam to this villan bin Laden. He is a maniacal megalomaniac bent upon domination and in no way represents so much that is to be revered in the Islamic faith. I am confident that good Muslims throughout the world are recoiling in horror at the very notion of what has taken place in New York. > > I look forward to a world that has been rid of the pestilence known as terrorism and hope for a day when security can be the byword it used to be in our own country and should be in so many others. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > …Until this day, I never thought that I could possibly feel this way. But a line was crossed last Tuesday the steps of which can never be retraced. The genie is out of the bottle. We must command the situation and do it with all the authority of this world’s greatest military power. **Only a fool would be satisfied to have a single one of the Taleban left alive when we are finished**. We must act now to eliminate this murderous element from society. We have encountered the human equivalent of the Ebola strain in mankind, this is the flesh eating virus of civilization. We must sterilize the earth of these bloodthirsty blackguards without delay. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > …Please know that I am worried as I have never been before. We are at a turning point in history where we will surrender our progress as a free society or assert ourselves in a fashion so viscious as to be nearly alien to our culture. None of this will be fun. Capturing and prosecuting bin Laden is merely a prelude to the gigantic task in front of us. All of our responses must be unequivocal and decisive, this much I know. The time for polite diplomacy and tolerance is over with. This is war. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > …I am advocating overthrown of the Taleban government. I do not wish to see the entire country of Afghanistan brought to ruin unless they are unable to see the error of their ways. Even then, this is not something that I hope for. Sadly, I must wish for a world that is rid of terrorist scum like Osama bin Laden and the Taleban mullahs that support him much more than I can worry about the Afghani people. The time has come for action and we must not flinch in dismantling their already dangerous organization. Much worse will follow if these Taleban scum are not eradicated immediately. Any delay only gives them further opportunity to perpetrate another atrocity like the one we have already seen. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > I did not “just about” suggest America using weapons of destruction upon its own citizens. I used this as an example of just how outraged I am about terrorism, both international _and_ domestic. And where in Hades you managed to contrive that I think about Waco, Texas as a “small, ‘backward’ (Just who exactly are you quoting here? Because it certainly isn’t me.) Southern town”? > > **You have superimposed all sorts of vile undertones of your own invention upon a passing example made by me.** I will repeat, I **do not** advocate our government using weapons of destruction against our own citizens. I just feel that extreme measures are required in order to quell terrorism and that was an illustration of just how extreme my feelings are on the subject. Please stop trying to read bigotry and hatred into my words. I detest terrorists and want them all dead sooner than later, plain and simple and that is all. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*Please do not try to tell me that the United States has _never_ used foreign aid as a political tool. This is a time if ever there was one where it seemed in our own best interest to do so. > > I have great difficulties with both parties involved. My distaste for the current administration is well known. Anyone familiar with my views on choice and domestic violence also know that I am a keen supporter of women’s rights. The denial of basic rights to women (voting, speech or what have you) is a fundamental violation of _human_ rights. I also believe that women should have reproductive freedom of choice. I feel it seeks to violate a woman’s rights by wishing to limit choice. > > The extreme level of misogyny in Afghanistan and my detestation for it is an established fact. I find the anti-choice stance of the current administration to be consonant with _other_ fundamentalist views which have exaggerated sway in our own government’s orientation. The willingness to tamper with the separation of church and state is a serious malfeasance considering the intrinsically polytheistic doctrine of our constitution. I see this introduction of theocracy into our own government as seditious and am concerned when this administration shows no great compunction in dealing with a more intensely theocratic regime. The willingness to overlook fundamental human rights violations while pursuing puritanical objectives is mirrored dangerously in their effort to undermine women’s rights domestically so as to appease an often fundamentalist religious faction whose vote is contingent upon them doing so. To seek such a divisive goal after being given such an equivocal mandate smacks of blind adherence and questionable motives. > > However minor any of you may see the issue, I do not view it as such. The sheer factor of them harboring bin Laden should have given this administration pause in dealing with these swine. Quite obviously it did not. And just as obviously there was a tremendous price paid for that oversight. The drug war blinkering of this administration allowed them to leave in place supporters of one of the most evil entities to walk the earth. I apologize, but I must give you a simple if not sickening illustration of just how evil bin Laden is. His latest rate of killing, if applied continuously, could accomplish slaughter on the scale of Hitler in a few months. Turning a blind eye to a known threat in a situation where we held all of the cards was incompetence on a grand scale. Willfully turning a blind eye to the suffering of women on such a vast scale is just plain evil. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > …While it is much less taxing to poke holes in my own examples, I would enjoy seeing you cudgle your wits and make some valid suggestions. This is one of the overall intents of this thread. What methods exist in order to wage an effective mop-up campaign in Afghanistan? The concepts I provided are meant to demonstrate the incredible difficulties we are faced with, not cut-in-stone solutions. > > While you are in no way obliged to come up with anything better than I have, I would like to see what you might be able to contribute. I still maintain that my comparison of bin Laden to Hitler is pertinent. An agenda of mass murder is common to both. Hitler is well recognized as that which is most despicible and I firmly suggest that bin Laden is of the same ilk, if not attempting to one up Adolph. The vigorous prosecution that Hitler experienced is exactly the same that bin Laden must face. I compare them to each other because they are on a par. If you are able to import an appropriate Civil War analogy into this, feel free. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by tomndebb \* > > Given that there is no “communion” of Islam from which one can be “excommunicated,” I’m not sure what you’re looking for…_\* > > Thanks **Tom** , howevermuch there are definite theological differences between Islam and Christianity (to say the least), loudly and roundly condemning these vermin would be a good place to start. I would tend to think that there is some equivalent of exclusion or _shunning_ in Moslem society and it would be a really good thing to apply here. I’ll have to pay the **Muslim Guy** another visit and do some more investigation. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > …Just make sure that as you falsely accuse me of advocating genocide that you also show the _exact_ order of my posts. Did you bother to notice that when I suggested a series of one-for-one retaliatory strikes against Afghanistan (not the genocide [see the definition below] you libelously accuse me of), it was preceded by suggestions of **allowing cities to be evacuated prior to their being bombed**? Any mention of how the bombing of evacuated cities should be preceeded with a demonstration of might in a remote region? Did you bother to notice or, perish the thought, mention that I have repeatedly and directly expressed my own personal discomfort with the intense feelings I have had related to all of this? Instead, you seek out only the most salacious aspects of my postings without providing any of the balance that I have attempted to include in them. While you may be incapable of distinguishing between military reprisal and mindless irrational slaughter like **Kalt** and **Coppertop** purvey, I am not. From the very onset of this crisis I have been one of the loudest opponents of nuclear reprisal. However, I’m sure you just can’t bear to choke that one down. If you are unwilling to maintain a degree of perspective similar to that which I have attempted to show, then kindly bugger off. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/17 "2001-10-19T02:47:35Z")
Errrr . . . huh? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/18 "2001-10-19T02:49:50Z")
Wow. That’s showin’ em, eh, gov’nor? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/19 "2001-10-19T02:54:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Did you bother to notice or, perish the thought, mention that I have repeatedly and directly expressed my own personal discomfort with the intense feelings I have had related to all of this? I can only conclude that you are in some kind of state that a clinically depressed person finds himself. Unable to function , and to tell his well-meaning friends who _do_ recognize it “Hey! I"m fine. I don’t need therapy or anti-depressant drugs.” Get help. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176/20 "2001-10-19T03:09:28Z")
Y’know, several times I’ve found myself arguing a point, and been responded to as if I was arguing a different point. At first I thought that I was not being clear, so I restate my point in excruciating detail, and attempt to be very specific. Still, no effect. I am responded to as if I’m arguing a different point. The only points that are responded to are the ones which **by themselves** seem to support what my opponent either believes me to be arguing, or wants me to be arguing. After a time, I began to figure out what was going on. The people on the other side of the debate have already determined in their heads what I am going to say, and what my motivations are for saying it, and they are either not going to see or are not going to respond to anything that doesn’t fit into their preconceived model. I have already been characterized, and as far as they’re concerned I am locked into that characterization. They have determined that I am \_\_\_ and therefore all my arguments must come from the \_\_\_ perspective. For example, if I think Bill Clinton was wrong for what he did with Monica Lewinsky and the coverup afterwards, I must be clearly a right wing, knee jerk guy, looking for an excuse to discredit the man and disrupt his effectiveness in office. Or if I disagree with an Israeli policy perhaps that means I am anti-semite. Or, if I beleive that a strong and forceful reaction is both appropriate and recquired in light of the WTC act I must be hell bent on vengeance, full of anger, and a war-hawk. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zenster-wholesale-nonsense-bigotry-demagoguery-etc/88176.md?page=2)