# Zev\_steinhardt, Doc Cathode, Angua, I Hate To Break It To You: You're Christian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2005, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737 "2005-03-03T10:06:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/1 "2005-03-03T10:06:14Z")
OK, I admit I pushed it. Over in Great Debates, we’ve been arguing who is or is not a Christian. According to **rwjefferson** , apparently any good person is, including those who have specifically and deliberately chosen not to be. [Here’s the post in question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=303419&page=3#post5904617). I’ve tried repeatedly to explain to him how calling a person who has chosen not to be a Christian a “Christian” can be offensive. I’ve repeatedly explained to him that deliberately distorting the English language to make a word mean what you want it mean is offensive. He still doesn’t get it and I’ve had it. **"Christian"and “good person” are NOT synonyms!** I’ve argued that point time and time again with Christians who don’t understand that a very dear and treasured friend of mine who is a Wiccan who walked away from Christianity a long time ago is one of the finest people I know. I can’t believe I’m now arguing the subject with a vague-minded New Age twit who cannot grasp that when I say someone is not a Christian it has nothing to do with my opinion of the state of their “Spirit”. Christian does not equal Muslim does not equal Jewish does not equal Wiccan does not equal Buddhist does not equal Hindo does not equal Cthulian!!! Yes, I realize I may be over-reacting. On the other hand, as I said in the thread in question, I find it \*\*extremely \*\* offensive to imply that all good people must, by definition, be Christians. **Zev\_steinhardt** , **Doc Cathode** , and **Angua** are three of my favorite people around here. ( **Doc Cathode** , it was a pleasure meeting you last summer.) I’ve learned a lot from them and I’ve got a tremendous amount of respect for their faiths as well as their senses of humor. I wouldn’t dream of calling them Christian. I think **Hoodoo ULove** put it best in the post immediately above the one I linked to in which he(?) points out: > [@](#): > > "My objection to his way of speaking is that it’s rude and disrepectful of others’ beliefs. It’s analogous to telling a black person “that’s real white of you”. Yes, I know, it takes all kinds and I suppose it’s only fair that each religion gets its share of nutters in turn; Lord knows I’ve had to put up with enough Christian ones! :rolleyes: On the other hand, this touches on two of my hot buttons: religion and distorting the English language. As I tried to explain to **rwjefferson** , deliberately distorting language to obscure meaning is something I really do consider a serious wrong because of what it does not only to language but to communication and understanding. Fellow Dopers, I now turn him over to your tender mercies. Let “tender mercies” mean what you will! CJ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/2 "2005-03-03T10:42:03Z")
For God so loved the world that He divided it into factions, that whosoever joins the most powerful faction shall not perish, but shall have eternal life. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/3 "2005-03-03T10:42:56Z")
To folks of his mindset, words don’t have definite meanings, especially religious & spiritual words. Thus, God, Christ, Christian are just synonymous with Goodness, Love, etc. And anyone who disagrees is a Pharisee (the common use of which btw I consider both erroneous & borderline anti-Semitic). Essentially, that mindset exalts Idea over Reality & is the essence of Gnosticism- the enemy of Biblical C’nity (which teaches that the Idea becomes Reality, the Word becomes flesh). To co-opt Pharisee, btw, I gotta point out that Jesus is on doctrinal issues, closest to the Pharisees. He held to the Tenach, rather than just the Torah, believed in a spirit world & afterlife/resurrection, and of course believed in a Messiah. Except for his strict stance on divorce, Jesus seemed to have an affinity for the more humanitarian, less legalistic school of Hillel (Falk’s JESUS THE PHARISEE, 1985). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/4 "2005-03-03T10:43:58Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > For God so loved the world that He divided it into factions, that whosoever joins the most powerful faction shall not perish, but shall have eternal life. Why is the Darth Vader theme going through my head? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/5 "2005-03-03T11:07:46Z")
> [@Seige](#): > > **Zev\_steinhardt, Doc Cathode, Angua** , I Hate To Break It To You: You’re Christian You mean, I’ve been denied bacon sandwiches all this time for nothing?? 😉 But seriously, WTF does **rwjefferson** think he’s playing at? As I’ve just explained in the thread linked in the OP, there are _fundamental_ differences in the beliefs of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. Whilst the core beliefs of the Oneness of God, and “do unto others how you would have others do unto you” are identical, there are fundamental differences which mean that calling a Muslim, Christian, or a Christian, Muslim, is frankly downright offensive. Grrrr. People like that make me mad. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/6 "2005-03-03T11:45:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > For God so loved the world that He divided it into factions, that whosoever joins the most powerful faction shall not perish, but shall have eternal life. I like that; can I use it elsewhere sometime? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/7 "2005-03-03T11:51:00Z")
Beware false prophets. Thou shalt not bear false witness. I think this was covered in a book I once read. I can’t recall the name of it, but the edition I’ve read had a main charater in the latter half that was somehow connected to a pretty powerful guy. I’ve even heard he has a fan or two. But it’s all, of course, speculation on my part. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/8 "2005-03-03T11:52:18Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I like that; can I use it elsewhere sometime? Depends on what language you speak. Tower of Babel and all that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/9 "2005-03-03T11:56:36Z")
Oy. I thought this was more light hearted than it apparently is becoming. Rwjefferson isn’t playing at anything. He isn’t talking about beliefs. He isn’t even (from the linked post) saying that you are Christians. He is merely saying that the truth that arises from all religions points to one and the same entity. He may call It Christ, you may call It Yahweh, others may call It Allah, Vishnu, the Universe, whatever. Despite that we sometimes see these matters in terms of some sort of competition between Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed does not mean that they themselves see it that way. The Christ and the Buddha are not captains of opposing teams. If their respective followers lined up in opposition to do battle, the two of them would mourn. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/10 "2005-03-03T12:42:56Z")
I know some very good people who do not worship what Christians call “God”. It’s not that they worship him under another name-they do not worship him _at all_. Period. How would some of the devout Christians here feel if I insisted that, because they have shown anger and/or selfishness and/or jealousy and/or doubt they, in their own way, worship Satan. now, they may call him Loki, Coyote, Hades, Ctuthlu, Weakness, or Human Emotion, but in reality they are, in their own way, followers of Satan and he will welcome them as true believers after they die. I do not follow your god under _any_ name, and I do not like it when people put me under their umbrella of “all-inclusiveness”. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/11 "2005-03-03T12:49:11Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Oy. I thought this was more light hearted than it apparently is becoming. Rwjefferson isn’t playing at anything. He isn’t talking about beliefs. He isn’t even (from the linked post) saying that you are Christians. He is merely saying that the truth that arises from all religions points to one and the same entity. He may call It Christ, you may call It Yahweh, others may call It Allah, Vishnu, the Universe, whatever. Despite that we sometimes see these matters in terms of some sort of competition between Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed does not mean that they themselves see it that way. The Christ and the Buddha are not captains of opposing teams. If their respective followers lined up in opposition to do battle, the two of them would mourn. Frankly, I’d prefer this sort ‘all religions are one’ thing to what Zev and I went through last year having to _defend_ the fact that Jews don’t celebrate Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/12 "2005-03-03T12:53:59Z")
Siege, your so called point seem to rest on the obviously erroneously assumption that Zev\_steinhardt, Doc Cathode and Angua are good persons. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/13 "2005-03-03T12:54:51Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Frankly, I’d prefer this sort ‘all religions are one’ thing to what Zev and I went through last year having to _defend_ the fact that Jews don’t celebrate Christmas. i don’t know-it hints at “My god is so powerful that all those gods the rest of you worship are really just names for _my_ god.” ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/14 "2005-03-03T12:56:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > now, they may call him Loki, Coyote, Hades, \*\*Ctuthlu,\*\*\*Weakness, or Human Emotion, but in reality they are, in their own way, followers of Satan and he will welcome them as true believers after they die. > > I do not follow your god under _any_ name, and I do not like it when people put me under their umbrella of “all-inclusiveness”. But you have to admit Metallica did a kick ass job on the theme song Call of Chthulu. \*bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/15 "2005-03-03T12:57:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I know some very good people who do not worship what Christians call “God”. It’s not that they worship him under another name-they do not worship him at all. > Period. It often seems to be the habit of materialists to attach to one definition out of dozens and use it equivocally and summarily, whether it’s a discussion about the heart, or love, or worship. But worship can mean “To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion”, a synonym of “revere”. (American Heritage). I know many atheists who regard the universe reverently, and with a sense of devotion and wonder. SentientMeat is a perfect example with his “I am made of stars!” soliloquy that he shares from time to time. > [@](#): > > How would some of the devout Christians here feel if I insisted that, because they have shown anger and/or selfishness and/or jealousy and/or doubt they, in their own way, worship Satan. now, they may call him Loki, Coyote, Hades, Ctuthlu, Weakness, or Human Emotion, but in reality they are, in their own way, followers of Satan and he will welcome them as true believers after they die. I would feel in agreement. > [@](#): > > I do not follow your god under _any_ name, and I do not like it when people put me under their umbrella of “all-inclusiveness”. Who has done that? Sure, there are people so ascerbic and reckless that they simply despise the objects of people’s worship, or as you once put it to me, would draw a sword upon the sight of what they revere and run it through. No one is including you or anyone else who wishes to be excluded. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/16 "2005-03-03T12:59:41Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Frankly, I’d prefer this sort ‘all religions are one’ thing to what Zev and I went through last year having to _defend_ the fact that Jews don’t celebrate Christmas. Just to be clear, I don’t think they all are one in the sense that there are no substantive differences among them. I just think that they are all gateways into the same garden. Some open into the south side, where there are roses. Some open into the east side, where there are vines. But all give access to the fountain in the center. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/17 "2005-03-03T13:03:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Just to be clear, I don’t think they all are one in the sense that there are no substantive differences among them. I just think that they are all gateways into the same garden. Some open into the south side, where there are roses. Some open into the east side, where there are vines. But all give access to the fountain in the center. Sorry, but I’m not a “garden” kind of guy. I do not intend to enter your garden through _any_ gate. I don’t see your garden. I do not believe your garden even exists. I am not on any path that, even remotely, leads to your garden. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/18 "2005-03-03T13:04:22Z")
But how do you reconcile that with Commandment Mark One? “Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me” is pretty clear on that to me. Worship this God and no other. Though, I suppose, technically there can be other, lesser Gods based on the phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/19 "2005-03-03T13:08:30Z")
Actually, you’re all Scientologists and eventually you’ll come around for auditing. Oh, maybe not in THIS lifetime… but eventually. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/20 "2005-03-03T13:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Sorry, but I’m not a “garden” kind of guy. I do not intend to enter your garden through any gate. I don’t see your garden. I do not believe your garden even exists. I am not on any path that, even remotely, leads to your garden. We would be warm below the storm In our little hideaway beneath the waves Resting our head on the sea bed In an octopus’s garden near a cave [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737.md?page=2)