# Zev\_steinhardt, Doc Cathode, Angua, I Hate To Break It To You: You're Christian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2005, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737 "2005-03-03T10:06:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/21 "2005-03-03T13:12:06Z")
I don’t know if it’s universal, but isn’t there an understanding in Judaism that a child of a jewish mother is jewish even if they decide otherwise? Rather than having a big row, can’t we say Jewish-according-to-Jewish-tradition or Jewish-according-to-themsleves when there’s doubt? And can’t we do the same thing for people who think they aren’t Christian, but some Christians say they are, or vice-versa? There is a ligitimate viewpoint that Christian means “having a relationship with Jesus” and it’s possible to do that with Jesus’s manifestation as various good stuff wihtout realising it, so to him, people could be christian without knowing it. That’s not what’s idiotic, what’s idiotic is insisting that’s the only way to use the term, or using it that way when you know full effing well you’re misleading people because normally we classify people by _their_ choice. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/22 "2005-03-03T13:16:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sorry, but I’m not a “garden” kind of guy. I do not intend to enter your garden through _any_ gate. I don’t see your garden. I do not believe your garden even exists. I am not on any path that, even remotely, leads to your garden. Yes, I know. And as I already said, no one begrudges your excluding yourself. Why you haven’t already run along is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/23 "2005-03-03T13:17:25Z")
This thread reminds me of a call I heard on the Larry King show many years ago. The topic was strife in the Middle East, and some old lady called up to try to smooth the waters. When she said,“I don’t know why the Jews, Christians and Moslems can’t just get along, because they all worship Christ in their own way.”, I :smack: ed my forehead. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/24 "2005-03-03T13:19:34Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yes, I know. And as I already said, no one begrudges your excluding yourself. Why you haven’t already run along is unclear. Because my opinion on “all-inclusiveness” differs from yours, and I wish to participate in this conversation. You’ve stated _your_ opinion-why are you still here? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/25 "2005-03-03T13:32:13Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > But how do you reconcile that with Commandment Mark One? > > “Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me” is pretty clear on that to me. Worship this God and no other. > > Though, I suppose, technically there can be other, lesser Gods based on the phrasing. Well. I guess if we’re gonna pull out the verse microscope (;)), there are three Hebrew words in that verse. A reasonable translation could be “You have no God besides me.” But that says nothing about how many Avatars there might be. Again, one garden, but many gates. It is my opinion that Christ is Himself the garden, but if that is a stumbling block for another man, Jesus would be the first to tell him to cut Him off, just like a hand that offends. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/26 "2005-03-03T13:34:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because my opinion on “all-inclusiveness” differs from yours, and I wish to participate in this conversation. You’ve stated _your_ opinion-why are you still here? Yes, fine, but I didn’t mean why are you still here typing, I meant why are you still banging on the gate and yelling, “I don’t want to come in!”? You seem to feel like someone is pulling on you as you kick and scream. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/27 "2005-03-03T13:46:34Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You seem to feel like someone is pulling on you as you kick and scream. That would be me, I’m afraid. As a universalist who’s been following this thread, I’ve been quitely believing that God is a part of everyones life whether they acknowledge it or not, and that Jesus will ultimately save **Czarcasm** no matter what. I apologize, and from now on I’ll be an Everyonebutczarcasmist. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/28 "2005-03-03T13:56:56Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yes, fine, but I didn’t mean why are you still here typing, I meant why are you still banging on the gate and yelling, “I don’t want to come in!”? You seem to feel like someone is pulling on you as you kick and scream. My girlfriend prays for me regularly. She loves me. She wants me to be healthy, happy, successful, all that… I know it comes from the heart and this is one of the ways in which she expresses her lover for me. But I’m an atheist. I prefer all the _other_ ways in which she expresses her love for me. 😉 I often joke with her by telling her to knock it off and not do that while she is sitting on the couch so close to me. I don’t want to get struck by lightning by mistake. 😃 The thing is, I love her and I don’t get upset with her. She’s found faith and it makes her happy. I get no comfort from a faith based belief and I’m nevertheless happy. Everybody is happy, right? Except she, like many religious people the world over, aren’t happy unless they are praying for us philistines. ;j ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/29 "2005-03-03T14:13:42Z")
I have had the most maddening conversation with someone who tried to assure me that Catholics aren’t “Christian.” :rolleyes: Christians believe in the divinity of Joshua ben Joseph. That covers Catholics and Protestants, pretty much. If you do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then you are not a Christian. I also love the conversation where she tries to tell me that Jesus was not a Jew… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/30 "2005-03-03T14:18:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Except she, like many religious people the world over, aren’t happy unless they are praying for us philistines. 😃 You sound like a wonderful couple. Congratulations! ---
**Author:** ![InkBlot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5e925/32.png) [@InkBlot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InkBlot)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/31 "2005-03-03T14:40:17Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > That would be me, I’m afraid. As a universalist who’s been following this thread, I’ve been quitely believing that God is a part of everyones life whether they acknowledge it or not, and that Jesus will ultimately save **Czarcasm** no matter what. I apologize, and from now on I’ll be an Everyonebutczarcasmist. I’m trying to follow this, but I’m having trouble. **Czarcasm** : I don’t follow you God under some other name. **Liberal** : Ah, but what you _do_ follow winds up in the same place in the end. **Czarcasm** : No, no it doesn’t. **Liberal** : Sure it does, I can tell you want it. Go on, ya know you want to. Isn’t this just an extension of what began this thread? I mean, I’m getting a simple message here. People don’t want their beliefs subjugated into someone else’s. Whether it’s “all are but different names for God,” or “all are but different names for Right and Wrong,” doesn’t matter. It shows a lack of respect, in my opinion, to redefine someone elses beliefs just so you can accept them. Maybe it’s necessary to your definition of “Good People,” I don’t know, but it smacks of smugness and pretentiousness. **Liberal** , I don’t know you’re stake in this as I’ve only glanced at the other thread. If this is a side you wish to defend, or merely extended satire, I’d appreciate it if you could make it clear. Thank you. InkBlot :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/32 "2005-03-03T14:52:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Oy. I thought this was more light hearted than it apparently is becoming. Rwjefferson isn’t playing at anything. He isn’t talking about beliefs. He isn’t even (from the linked post) saying that you are Christians. He is merely saying that the truth that arises from all religions points to one and the same entity. Except… There is no truth in any religion. All religions from the dawn of time to the present are nothing but lies; they are an elaborate con game perpetrated by one group of people on another and nothing more. THAT is why I am offended when people call me a Christian. I have not been a Christian since my early teens, when I found out the truth about religions. I don’t like being lied to, and I really don’t like it when others keep trying to force that lie down my throat. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/33 "2005-03-03T14:52:47Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > According to rwjefferson, apparently any good person is [a Christian], including those who have specifically and deliberately chosen not to be. Crap. [Godfather] Every time you think you’re out, they keep pullin’ you back in.[/Godfather] I guess that means I have to go out and be a bad person. Where are my scissors, I feel like taking a jog. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/34 "2005-03-03T14:53:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > 😃 You sound like a wonderful couple. Congratulations! I wasn’t fishing for a compliment but I’ll take it. Thank you. 🙂 The thing is, **Czarcasm’s** point is accurate. Like it or not, us poor dumb atheist bastards are being dragged kicking and screeming to that garden of yours. It’s a bit like a patronizing pat on the head. “Yes, yes, **QS** you’re my strong big smart man, angry with god! But that’s okay, I’ve got your back!” Again, it doesn’t upset me because we find humour in our difference and respective outlook on this issue. She doesn’t drag me to church with her. I don’t make her prove the existance of god to me. We have reached détente. However, I absolutely draw the line at her playing the Indigo Girls in my presence. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/35 "2005-03-03T14:55:23Z")
> [@Inkblot](#): > > Czarcasm: I don’t follow you God under some other name. > > Liberal: Ah, but what you do follow winds up in the same place in the end. > > Czarcasm: No, no it doesn’t. > > Liberal: Sure it does, I can tell you want it. Go on, ya know you want to. No, it went like this… Czar: I don’t follow your god under some other name. Lib: Yeah, I know. No one is stopping you from excluding yourself. Czar: Dammit, I don’t need your god. Lib: Yeah, I know. So why don’t you just leave Him alone? > [@](#): > > Liberal, I don’t know you’re stake in this as I’ve only glanced at the other thread. If this is a side you wish to defend, or merely extended satire, I’d appreciate it if you could make it clear. Thank you. Make it clear? What about “No one is including you or anyone else who wishes to be excluded” was not clear? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/36 "2005-03-03T15:00:00Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > All religions from the dawn of time to the present are nothing but lies; they are an elaborate con game perpetrated by one group of people on another and nothing more. > > THAT is why I am offended when people call me a Christian. If it makes you feel any better, I think you’re an asshole, not a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/37 "2005-03-03T15:03:14Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Make it clear? What about “No one is including you or anyone else who wishes to be excluded” was not clear? Can we get that in writing? Would signing it in blood be a problem? 😃 …and when you say ‘no one’ are you speaking for everyone? Even my girlfriend. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/38 "2005-03-03T15:13:44Z")
Just speaking for myself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/39 "2005-03-03T15:14:46Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Make it clear? What about “No one is including you or anyone else who wishes to be excluded” was not clear? Hrmmm, what was unclear? (All bolding mine and size alterations mine) > [@Liberal](#): > > He is merely saying that the truth that arises from all religions points to **one and the same entity**. He may call It Christ, you may call It Yahweh, others may call It Allah, Vishnu, **the Universe,** whatever. This implies that atheists, who believe in Universe, actually believe in your God in a round about fashion. > [@liberal](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > I know some very good people who do not worship what Christians call “God”. It’s not that they worship him under another name-they do not worship him at all. > > Period. > > I know many atheists who regard the universe reverently, and with a sense of devotion and wonder. This in response to **Czarcasm** implies that he does, indeed, worship your God if he finds Universe to be beautiful/wonderful/awesome. The point is that no, he does not. Gods don’t enter into his paradigm, and to tell him that he must worship God because that’s how you conceive of his philosophy… He doesn’t worship God, because he doesn’t believe in one. You can try to sneak a deity in through the back door, but I don’t think it would work. > [@Liberal](#): > > Who has done that? Sure, there are people so ascerbic and reckless that they simply despise the objects of people’s worship, or as you once put it to me, would draw a sword upon the sight of what they revere and run it through. **No one is including you or anyone else who wishes to be excluded.** > [@Liberal](#): > > But **worship can mean** “To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion”, a synonym of “revere”. (American Heritage). **I know many atheists who regard the universe reverently, and with a sense of devotion and wonder.** > [@Liberal](#): > > Just to be clear, I don’t think they all are one in the sense that there are no substantive differences among them. **I just think that they are all gateways into the same garden.** (As if a Gnostic, a Pantheist, a Deist, an Atheist, a Nihilist, a Solipsist, etc… arrive at anything like a common ground…) > [@Liberal](#): > > It is my opinion that **Christ is Himself the garden,** In short, I call bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/40 "2005-03-03T15:21:29Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It is my opinion that Christ is Himself the garden… Christ is the garden. Gardens need fertilizer. Manure is fertilizer. Therefore Christ is full of shit. 😛 I’m just gonna run away now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737.md?page=3)