# Zev\_steinhardt, Doc Cathode, Angua, I Hate To Break It To You: You're Christian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2005, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737 "2005-03-03T10:06:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/41 "2005-03-03T15:25:02Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Who has done that? Sure, there are people so ascerbic and reckless that they simply despise the objects of people’s worship, or as you once put it to me, would draw a sword upon the sight of what they revere and run it through. No one is including you or anyone else who wishes to be excluded. Um…rwjefferson did. Read the post that incited this pitting. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/42 "2005-03-03T15:26:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sorry, but I’m not a “garden” kind of guy. I do not intend to enter your garden through _any_ gate. I don’t see your garden. I do not believe your garden even exists. I am not on any path that, even remotely, leads to your garden. Me either. Mostly because I don’t believe there’s a fountain. But I like this better than the sports and military analogies… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/43 "2005-03-03T15:33:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This implies that atheists, who believe in Universe, actually believe in your God in a round about fashion. The huh…? No, it implies that _pantheists_ etc, etc, etc. In your hurried zeal to disagree with a Lib post, you negelected to hightlight a dependent clause: “He is merely saying that the truth \*\*that arises from all religions \*\* points to one and the same entity. He may call It Christ, you may call It Yahweh, others may call It Allah, Vishnu, the Universe, whatever.” That exempts atheism altogether. (Not that atheists are forbidden from entering the garden, but merely that they do not pursue its entry.) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/44 "2005-03-03T15:36:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hrmmm, what was unclear? > > \ > > In short, I call bullshit. Damn **Finn**. Who the hell are you kidding? I counted a two screen reply and you call that ‘in short’! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/45 "2005-03-03T15:40:37Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > \ (Not that atheists are forbidden from entering the garden, but merely that they do not pursue its entry.) I’m glad you qualified that fully. I was half expecting, “…but merely that they are responsible for spreading the furtilizer.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/46 "2005-03-03T15:47:02Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > If it makes you feel any better, I think you’re an asshole, not a Christian. What?! He’s an asshole for his beliefs? Can I call you an asshole for yours? **Liberal** , I’m on the side of \*\*FinnAgain \*\* here. You do make it sound like you think even atheists are entering your garden and we are trying to say we don’t think there is a garden, and quite frankly, ever was. I put myself in with **Clothahump**. All religions are lies, meant to delude the people. Note that I did not say all religious beliefs, or all belief in a god. Just the religions - which are controlled by people in power and are the “opiate of the masses”\> ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/47 "2005-03-03T15:48:03Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m glad you qualified that fully. I was half expecting, “…but merely that they are responsible for spreading the furtilizer.” 🙂 Most categorical expressions are inaccurate, aren’t they. Amidst our jocularity, I probably should qualify it even further. Atheists are not the Borg, of course. Some are softer and harder than others. It is entirely conceivable that a person who lacks faith is at the same time searching for it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/48 "2005-03-03T15:49:51Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > **Liberal** , I’m on the side of \*\*FinnAgain \*\* here. You do make it sound like you think even atheists are entering your garden and we are trying to say we don’t think there is a garden, and quite frankly, ever was. **I know that (most) atheists don’t think there is a garden or ever was. No one enters the garden who doesn’t want to, atheist or otherwise.** ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/49 "2005-03-03T15:58:29Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Most categorical expressions are inaccurate, aren’t they. Amidst our jocularity, I probably should qualify it even further. Atheists are not the Borg, of course. Some are softer and harder than others. It is entirely conceivable that a person who lacks faith is at the same time searching for it. I find myself more often searching for my favourite driving glasses… but I do understand what you are getting at. I’m tempted to interpret your comment as wishful thinking, typical of well meaning theists, and certainly not mean spirited. You’re okay in my books. 🙂 …And if I do find myself entering that garden, despite my lack of faith, I want to note my preference for the rose garden entrance. I love fragrant tea roses. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/50 "2005-03-03T16:00:01Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > What?! He’s an asshole for his beliefs? No, **Clothahump** is pretty much an asshole because he’s an asshole. Trust me, I know from assholes. He’s no **andros** , but he’s pretty good. His only saving grace IMHO is that I still have a soft spot for the novels from which he took his screen name. ("‘E what fights an’ runs away, lives to fight another day.") Now, I find the idea that there is absolutely no truth in _any_ religion _ever_ to be entirely ridiculous and reactionary. And stupid. And stuff. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/51 "2005-03-03T16:01:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I want to note my preference for the rose garden entrance. Whoa, whoa, whoa there. I never promised you a rose garden. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/52 "2005-03-03T16:07:23Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Whoa, whoa, whoa there. > > I never promised you a rose garden. I beg your pardon?.. 🙂 …The Suicide Machines, from SLC Punk soundtrack. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/53 "2005-03-03T16:07:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I find myself more often searching for my favourite driving glasses… but I do understand what you are getting at. I’m tempted to interpret your comment as wishful thinking, typical of well meaning theists, and certainly not mean spirited. You’re okay in my books. 🙂 > > …And if I do find myself entering that garden, despite my lack of faith, I want to note my preference for the rose garden entrance. I love fragrant tea roses. 😃 There once was a popular thread in Great Debates, hosted by Glee. He invited people of faith to intercede on his behalf because although he was an atheist, he was open to finding faith. (I believe I recall that he had at one time actively sought faith, but failed to find it. There was even a disastrous turn that I won’t go into here unless he wants to bring it up.) I can understand why people who often hear the condescension of “I know you don’t believe, but that’s just because you don’t yet understand” might see it in the most innocent of places. I’m rather trigger-happy about certain issues myself. But when I make direct statements like “no, you’re not included” it boggles the mind how that is perceived as “yes, you’re included.” ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/54 "2005-03-03T16:07:32Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > What?! He’s an asshole for his beliefs? No, he’s actually just an [asshole](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5564252&postcount=13). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/55 "2005-03-03T16:07:33Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The huh…? No, it implies that _pantheists_ etc, etc, etc. Sorry, but no. By you own words: (paraphrased) Worship is reverence/awe, atheists have awe/reverence for Universe, atheists worship Universe. Your inclusion of the word “Universe” is unambiguously secular, as atheistic science believes in Universe. You attempted to claim that it was ‘the same entity’ as your God. Now you are attempting to back away. > [@Liberal](#): > > In your hurried zeal to disagree with a Lib post, you negelected to hightlight a dependent clause: "He is merely saying that the truth \*\*that arises from all religions \*\* points to one and the same entity. Ease up with the mindreading there pardner. I disagreed with an incorrect post, I couldn’t possibly care less whose username is attatched to it. Now, what religion, exactly, is an atheist scientist who belives in Universe? He doesn’t have one, and yet you specifically included a belief in Universe as on par with a belief in Allah, Yaweh, etc… In addition, the concept that a Gnostic who believes that God is part and parcel of all of Universe reaches the “same garden” as someone who believes that God is irrevocably divorced from our immediate essence is, well, absurd. Likewise that a Christian who believes God is a judge who dwells in some non-space/time place would, ontologically, be at odds with, say, a Thelemite who believed that there was no judge anywhere, and no where that wasn’t in space/time. All religions are not equal, even though you’d like to think that your God is so great that everybody else is worshipping it but they just don’t know it. > [@Liberal](#): > > He may call It Christ, you may call It Yahweh, others may call It Allah, Vishnu, the Universe, whatever." That exempts atheism altogether. [/QUOTE] Nope. If religious beliefs about Universe are the same, in your own words “one and the same entity”, as beliefs about God, then Universe = God. You yourself have implied that amongst religious beliefs of Allah, etc… is the belief in Universe. If believing in Universe is religious, then it is religious even when an atheist does it. As such, an atheist who believes in Universe simply believes in your God. This is not truth. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/56 "2005-03-03T16:09:01Z")
**Czar** If, when I die, I’m only dead And if you too have only died, It will not matter what I’ve said. You will not be there, at my side. But now, before we die I guess That I should ask: If you’re not there Can I still love you? Please say yes, In case I do, and I still care. Tris ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/57 "2005-03-03T16:12:55Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But when I make direct statements like “no, you’re not included” it boggles the mind how that is perceived as “yes, you’re included.” Hate the medium not the message. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/58 "2005-03-03T16:16:13Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Despite that we sometimes see these matters in terms of some sort of competition between Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed does not mean that they themselves see it that way. The Christ and the Buddha are not captains of opposing teams. If their respective followers lined up in opposition to do battle, the two of them would mourn. The huh…? Buddha- Your suffering is caused by your desires. End your suffering by ending desire through meditation. Once you are enlightened you leave samara and are gone forever. J.C.- Suffering on this world is only temporary. Accept me as your savior and you will go to heaven and live there forever. Deny me and you will go to hell and spend eternity there. I’d have to say my man J.C. thinks of it as a competition in the way that he punishes you for not believing. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/59 "2005-03-03T16:17:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Sorry, but no. By you own words: (paraphrased) My own words _paraphrased_!? Fucking fuck! You’re not only disingenuous; you’re downright bold about it. 😃 Well, then, let me paraphrase you in your own words: Lib, I acknowledge that you have said, have repeated, and have posted in large red letters your view which I now understand. Is that what you meant? > [@](#): > > Your inclusion of the word “Universe” is unambiguously secular, as atheistic science believes in Universe. Oh, bullshit. In any other thread, you would be screaming that “belief” is misapplied in that instance. > [@](#): > > I disagreed with an incorrect post, I couldn’t possibly care less whose username is attatched to it. I don’t believe you. You are so intent on disagreeing with me that you are manufacturing paraphrases and calling them my own words. > [@](#): > > All religions are not equal, even though you’d like to think that your God is so great that everybody else is worshipping it but they just don’t know it. And you call me a mind reader? 😃 Oh, it is to laugh. Ha. I have in fact expressed the exact opposite of what you just wrote. “The Christ and the Buddha are not captains of opposing teams.” My own belief in Christ forms no obligation on the part of anyone else. I wrote “It is my opinion that Christ is Himself the garden, but if that is a stumbling block for another man, Jesus would be the first to tell him to cut Him off, just like a hand that offends.” If I advise a man to cut off Christ, how am I saying that my God is greater than his? > [@](#): > > Nope. If religious beliefs about Universe are the same, in your own words “one and the same entity”, as beliefs about God, then Universe = God. You yourself have implied that amongst religious beliefs of Allah, etc… is the belief in Universe. If believing in Universe is religious, then it is religious even when an atheist does it. As such, an atheist who believes in Universe simply believes in your God. This is not truth. Pantheists believe that the universe is God, you dolt. That’s not any kind of secret knowledge. Maybe it’s time for you to stop paraphrasing and speaking for other people, and start speaking for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737/60 "2005-03-03T16:17:31Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > **I know that (most) atheists don’t think there is a garden or ever was. No one enters the garden who doesn’t want to, atheist or otherwise.** If nobody entered ‘the garden’ who didn’t want to, why do you say any religious belief is ‘one and the same’ as yours? Obviously other religions do not agree on your doctrine or dogma, and reach quite different ‘gardens’. Are you going to argue that any ‘garden’ (can we please get a hard definition for that word?) is the same as any other? The follower of Set/Typhonis has anthing essential in common with a Jainist other than a basic belief in a ‘supernatural’ realm? Would they even agree on the fundamental nature of this ‘supernatural’ realm? By what means, exactly, do you propose we make varying religions equal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zev_steinhardt-doc-cathode-angua-i-hate-to-break-it-to-you-youre-christian/292737.md?page=4)