# Zimbabwe: as if it wasn't bad enough already **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2002, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293 "2002-09-23T16:54:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/21 "2002-09-24T14:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > \*\* > > And this one. > The ‘noble savage’ will work it out for himself, probaly during the course of next week. Meanwhile we’ll look the other way. \*\* You can save your bloody noble savage comments, as well as your benighted white man’s burden commentary. The issue is for internally supported polities to emerge, e.g. as has occured in Ghana, Senegal and Mali to date, to a somewhat shakier extent in Uganda, etc. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/22 "2002-09-24T14:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > you’re confusing South Africa, the country with Southern Africa, the region. You wrote _“ex-South Africa.”_ Were you not referring to the country? > [@](#): > > South Africa, \*\* the country \*\*, gets some attention for the following reasons, in order of importance > (a) an actual economic presence on the world stage > (b) long image presence on global stage, > © greater accessibility and comfort for the developed world journalist/traveller. I’ll grant you (a) and ©. It appears that (b) is a subset of (a). However, **(d)Apartheit** is far more important than (a), (b) and ©. If you read the various UN resolutions, boycott resolutions, etc, they all refer to (d), and none mentions (a), (b) and ©. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/23 "2002-09-24T14:33:02Z")
My first post was with regards to why a certain group of people was so awfully quiet. That group termed ‘liberals’ by **December** and who generally take the front in shouting nice, politically correct, slogans. Why are _they_ quiet with regards to Africa. In fact I largely agree with you on the causes and that they _should_ govern themselves. I just don’t think that we should have a (assumed or not) guilt complex towards Africa and stick our heads in the sand. Why shouldn’t we point to Mugabe and condemn what he is doing? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/24 "2002-09-24T14:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > You wrote _“ex-South Africa.”_ Were you not referring to the country? Ex-SA, meaning excluding SA. That is excluding SA, the bloody continent barely gets any attention at all in American press, and almost always in the negative. Such that your odd assertion that Mugabe was getting a pass for his blackness and so-called “Marxism”, if I read it correctly to be in re American press, is just more nattering on. If it is in re the usual clueless suspects on American campuses, variously called “activists”, then I wouldn’t disagree, but as they’re not terribly responsible for media coverage in gross… > [@](#): > > I’ll grant you (a) and ©. It appears that (b) is a subset of (a). However, **(d)Apartheit** is far more important than (a), (b) and ©. If you read the various UN resolutions, boycott resolutions, etc, they all refer to (d), and none mentions (a), (b) and ©. As Apartheid is now a decade in the past, more or less, my comments were present focused. However if you read carefully you will note that (b) includes Apartheid (formerly negative, now positive) by implication. Read carefully december, carefully. In re Latro, I am in no way arguing that Mugabe should not be criticized. As for “guilt complex” it all depends on what one means by that. If it means the namby pamby attitude that all African problems are the “fault” of “white oppressors” then I might agree. If it means a simplistic it’s all the nigs own fault argument, then I disagree. Colonial rule clearly set up some highly negative patterns of governance, and as we know from political inquiry on a global scale, historical precedent in re political culture etc. is a bloody hard thing to shake off, witness, e.g. FSU region. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/25 "2002-09-24T15:38:30Z")
The liberal orthodoxy is that all the problems of Africa are caused by colonialism. We have seen an example of this kind of thinking from **Collounsbury**. (Too bad about **december** handing you your ass, old boy - better luck next time.) As long as we condemn only white, trumped-up tinpot dictators, we will have the support of the Third World every time. Once we start condemning _all_ trumped-up tinpot dictators, half the UN starts getting nervous. Same as when Viet Nam and Cambodia were a big deal in the US, so long as we were fighting there (and there was a draft). Once we got out, Pol Pot and his ilk could make the streets run with blood and everyone looked the other way. No stick for beating up the colonialist powers, you see. So Mugabe is robbing and murdering. So did Idi Amin. So did Megistu. So did practically everybody else in sub-Saharan Africa. Who did the world spend most of their energy condemning? South Africa. They’re white. Otherwise, it doesn’t count. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/26 "2002-09-24T15:43:59Z")
Genie, the news on Zimbabwe’s human crisis was there, you just didn’t notice. I put “zimbabwe” into [cnn.com](http://cnn.com)’s Search function and got the following. (But you and Barbara Simpson both have a point–the animals aren’t mentioned.) September 23, 2002 [Zimbabwe faces no new sanctions – ABUJA, Nigeria (Reuters) – A Commonwealth group has ended talks divided on the issue of new sanctions against Zimbabwe for its land and political policies, an official communique said.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/23/zimbabwe.commonwealth.reut/index.html) September 19, 2002 [Zimbabwe tightens land laws – HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) – Zimbabwe has passed new land seizure laws designed to make it easier for the government to seize white-owned farms and give them to landless blacks.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/19/zimbabwe.land.ap/index.html) September 18, 2002 [Zimbabwe arrests white judge GENEVA, Switzerland (Reuters) – There is concern for a retired white judge who has been arrested in Zimbabwe on charges of corruption and obstructing justice.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/18/zimbabwe.judge.reut/index.html) September 17, 2002 [Harare jails white farmer for murder – HARARE, Zimbabwe (Reuters) – A white Zimbabwean farmer has been sentenced to 15 years in prison for the murder of a black man who had been given land on his property.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/17/zimbabwe.farmer.reut/index.html) September 16, 2002 [Howard steps up action on Zimbabwe-- CANBERRA, Australia (CNN) – The Commonwealth group of nations is set to step up pressure on Zimbabwe over its controversial land-redistribution program and the erosion of democratic institutions by President Robert Mugabe and his government.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/09/16/howard.zimbabwe/index.html) September 16, 2002 [Annan calls for war on AIDS – UNITED NATIONS (AP) – U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan called for a war on AIDS and the promotion of girls’ education as the United Nations took a break Monday from its regular debate to focus on what one African leader called extricating “Africa out of her long night of misery.”](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/16/un.africa.ap/index.html) September 16, 2002 (Yes, I know this is the same story twice, but it was posted in both “Health” and “World” that day.) [Annan calls for war against AIDS, focus on girls’ education in Africa – UNITED NATIONS (AP) – U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan called for a war on AIDS and the promotion of girls’ education as the United Nations took a break Monday from its regular debate to focus on what one African leader called extricating “Africa out of her long night of misery.”](http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/09/16/un.africa.aids.ap/index.html) September 15, 2002 [Report: S. Africa to speed up land reform – JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (Reuters) – South Africa plans to redistribute about 30 percent of land currently owned by white commercial farmers by 2015 and will expropriate farms where necessary, a financial daily reported on Sunday.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/15/safrica.land.reut/index.html) September 14, 2002 [Commonwealth: Zimbabwe turmoil won’t hamper African aid – UNITED NATIONS (AP) – The political turmoil in Zimbabwe will not jeopardize Africa’s efforts to attract foreign aid and pursue economic reforms, the chairman of Commonwealth nations said Saturday.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/14/un.commonwealth.zimbabwe.ap/index.html) September 13, 2002 [Farmers, judge held in Zimbabwe – HARARE, Zimbabwe – Twelve white farmers have been arrested in southern Zimbabwe for defying orders to leave their land to make way for new black settlers, a farmers rights group said on Friday.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/13/zimbabwe.farmers/index.html) September 13, 2002 [Zimbabwe troops to leave Congo – MBUJI-MAYI, Congo (Reuters) – Zimbabwean troops are preparing to leave Congo as part of a phased pull-out of foreign armies from Africa’s biggest war.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/13/congo.zimbabwe.reut/index.html) September 12, 2002 [Zimbabwe toughens land policy – HARARE, Zimbabwe (Reuters) – Zimbabwe’s government is to speed up the seizure of white-owned farms, state media has said.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/12/zimbabwe.land.reut/index.html) September 12, 2002 [Mugabe says ‘fast track’ land reform complete-- UNITED NATIONS (AP) – Zimbabwe’s President Robert Mugabe told the U.N. General Assembly on Thursday that his government had completed its “fast track” land distribution program to seize white-owned farms and redistribute them to thousands of poor and landless blacks.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/12/un.zimbabwe.ap/index.html) September 11, 2002 [S.Africa’s Mbeki wants to discuss Zimbabwe at U.N. – CAPE TOWN, Sept 11 (Reuters) – South African President Thabo Mbeki will try to discuss the Zimbabwe crisis with Commonwealth colleagues at the United Nations General Assembly in coming days, a government minister said on Wednesday.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/11/safrica.zimbabwe.reut/index.html) September 11, 2002 [Zimbabwe renews fuel deal with Libya – HARARE, Zimbabwe, (Reuters) – Zimbabwe has renewed a $360 million fuel deal with Libya under which the North African country will supply 70 percent of its fuel needs for a year, state media reported on Wednesday.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/11/zimbabwe.libya.fuel.reut/index.html) September 11, 2002 [UN investigates reports of scores killed in Congo – KINSHASA, Sept 11 (Reuters) – The United Nations is investigating reports that more than 100 people were killed in a new round of bloodletting in war-devastated northeastern Congo, a spokesman said on Wednesday.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/11/congo.democratic.killings.reut/index.html) September 8, 2002 [Zimbabwe deadline over, no arrests – HARARE, Zimbabwe – A new deadline for Zimbabwe’s white farmers to quit their properties and make way for landless blacks expired on Sunday with no news of fresh arrests.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/08/zimbabwe.evictions/index.html) September 8, 2002 [Zimbabwe farmers face new deadline – HARARE, Zimbabwe – Zimbabwe’s white farmers were facing a new deadline on Sunday to quit their properties and make way for landless blacks under President Robert Mugabe’s land reforms.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/08/zimbabwe.evictions.1120/index.html) September 4, 2002 [Powell heckled at Earth Summit – JOHANNESBURG, South Africa – U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell has faced a stormy reception at the Earth Summit in Johannesburg as he sought to defend America’s record on the environment.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/04/earth.lastday.glb/index.html) September 2, 2002 [Zimbabwe tensions hit Earth Summit – JOHANNESBURG, South Africa – Tension surfaced at the Earth Summit as Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe lashed out at his critics, especially UK Prime Minister Tony Blair.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/02/blair.mugabe/index.html) September 2, 2002 [Show courage, Annan tells leaders – JOHANNESBURG, South Africa – U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan has urged the leaders of rich nations gathered at the Earth Summit to show courage in the fight against poverty and environmental destruction.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/02/summit.eu.glb/index.html) September 2, 2002 [Annan: High cost of failure to act – JOHANNESBURG, South Africa – United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has told world leaders at the Earth Summit that failure to act now on poverty and the environment would have too high a cost.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/02/summit.annan.glb/index.html) Okay, so in the month of September so far, “Zimbabwe” has been mentioned in 22 [cnn.com](http://cnn.com) articles, of which I count 15 that were specifically about Zimbabwe. Other African nations with their own crises, both human and environmental, like Congo and Nigeria and Ivory Coast, were mentioned hardly at all during the same time period. I think the news on Zimbabwe is there, Genie, you just haven’t noticed it–if you’re like the rest of us 😃 , what you’ve been noticing all during September has been (1) the abductions of little girls, (2) Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, (3) the 9/11 anniversary, (4) American Idol, and (5) Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. We can only care about so many things at once. Look at the world–there are, literally, hundreds or even thousands of crises going on at this very moment. We all have to pick and choose, and human nature being what it is, we all tend to pick the loudest and brightest things to focus on. But I know what you mean, and what Barbara Simpson means–you both wanna know, “Where are the excited mainstream journalists doing standups in front of the Harare Presidential Palace? Why isn’t the Zimbabwe environmental crisis being featured on 20/20 and 60 Minutes?” There are two reasons for that, I think. The first is simply because the media also can only care about so many things at once, and like the rest of us, they pick the things that are the loudest and the brightest. Notice that suddenly now that there are American children’s lives at stake, [Ivory Coast is all over cnn.com.](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/24/ivory.coast/index.html) Anyway, there are so many appalling _human_ crises taking place simultaneously in Africa–starvation, AIDS, totalitarian dictatorships, civil wars, child labor, small arms trafficking, female genital mutilation, baby rapers, you name it, they got it. Where are you supposed to start? Where is CNN supposed to start? The animals just get short shrift in the face of such enormous human suffering. The second reason is because, as Daoloth mentioned, Mugabe has some serious issues with journalists. [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/08/14/zimbabwe.eviction/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/08/14/zimbabwe.eviction/index.html) > [@](#): > > Second Zimbabwe farm occupied > August 14, 2002 Posted: 2:11 PM EDT (1811 GMT) > BINDURA, Zimbabwe – Black militants armed with clubs and stones have forced a white farmer from his land in northeastern Zimbabwe, the first seizure since a government eviction deadline expired last week. > > A Reuters journalist and freelance television crew were chased away Wednesday morning when they arrived at the scene, some 55 miles north of the capital Harare. > > The militants hit two of the journalists several times, accusing them of supporting Mugabe’s political opposition, and tried to overturn their vehicle as they drove away, Reuters reported. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/1931679.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/1931679.stm) > [@](#): > > Monday, 15 April, 2002, 17:55 GMT 18:55 UK > Zimbabwe journalist arrested > > The editor of Zimbabwe’s only private daily newspaper has been arrested after publishing a story that last month’s election results were falsified, his lawyer said. > > Geoff Nyarota from The Daily News was charged with falsifying and fabricating information and released three hours later, said Lawrence Chibwe. > > Nyarota has been arrested five times in three years. > > The Daily News printing press was bombed in 2001. > > Days after his controversial re-election, President Robert Mugabe signed into law measures which greatly restricted the media. > > Another journalist was detained on Monday afternoon, his editor said. > > Dumisani Muleya from the Zimbabwe Independent was picked up in connection with a story published last Friday, said the paper’s editor, Iden Wetherall. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/1506216.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/1506216.stm) > [@](#): > > Thursday, 23 August, 2001, 18:46 GMT 19:46 UK > Zimbabwe ‘hit list’ journalist questioned > > Zimbabwean journalist Basildon Peta has been questioned by police just days after his name appeared at the top of an alleged hit list of journalists. > > On Sunday, The Standard newspaper claimed that seven prominent journalists working for non-governmental organisations would be “targeted” by the Central Intelligence Organisation ahead of presidential elections due early next year. > Mr Peta is secretary general of the Zimbabwe Union of Journalists and works for the Financial Gazette in Harare and London’s The Independent. > > In recent days, journalists from four privately-run newspapers have been questioned by police in what is being seen as an attempt to intimidate those who write articles which displease the authorities. On the BBC website, there’s a whole sidebar of related articles going back to 2001 on the subject of crackdowns on the media in Zimbabwe. [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/07/15/zimbabwe.journalist/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/07/15/zimbabwe.journalist/index.html) > [@](#): > > Zimbabwe expels cleared reporter > July 15, 2002 Posted: 10:26 AM EDT (1426 GMT) > HARARE, Zimbabwe (CNN) – A Zimbabwe court has found a U.S.-born journalist not guilty of breaching a tough new media law, however Andrew Meldrum was asked to leave the country shortly after the verdict, Meldrum’s close friend and colleague say. > > Michael Hartnack, a journalist present during Monday’s ruling, said Meldrum was “accosted” by two immigration officials before he had left the courtroom. The officials escorted Meldrum to a private room where they informed him that his permanent residence permit had been revoked and he had 24 hours to leave Zimbabwe. They did not give him a reason. > > Meldrum, 50, a reporter for the independent London newspaper The Guardian, has worked in Zimbabwe since 1980. He was arrested in May under Zimbabwe’s Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act, passed earlier this year which made it illegal for domestic journalists to operate without government accreditation. Notice that last statement: **" …Zimbabwe’s Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act, passed earlier this year which made it illegal for domestic journalists to operate without government accreditation. "** But they didn’t deport him after all. > **[Deportation order for U.S. journalist suspended\[Read the July, 2002, Special...](https://cpj.org/2002/07/deportation-order-for-us-journalist-suspendedread/)** > > New York, July 17, 2002—Zimbabwe's High Court has suspended government orders to deport Andrew Meldrum, a U.S. citizen and the Zimbabwe correspondent for the British Guardian newspaper, and referred the case to the Supreme Court. Meldrum was served... > [@](#): > > ZIMBABWE: Deportation order for U.S. journalist suspended > New York, July 17, 2002—Zimbabwe’s High Court has suspended government orders to deport Andrew Meldrum, a U.S. citizen and the Zimbabwe correspondent for the British Guardian newspaper, and referred the case to the Supreme Court. And he has been cleared of his charges, although others are still waiting to hear. [http://www.epnworld-reporter.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/368/Zimbabwe:\_Journalists\_Fight\_Restrictions.html](http://www.epnworld-reporter.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/368/Zimbabwe:_Journalists_Fight_Restrictions.html) > [@](#): > > Zimbabwe: Journalists Fight Restrictions > > July 25, 2002 > Days after US-born journalist Andrew Meldrum avoided a deportation order, two Zimbabwean journalists have had cases against referred to a higher court. Geoff Nyarota and Lloyd Mudiwa, editor of and reporter for the Daily News argued that the charges brought against them were unconstitutional. The judge at the hearing appears to have had little choice but to send the case to Zimbabwe’s Supreme Court. > > The media laws, widely condemned as draconian, were introduced before Zimbabwe’s last general election in March. Under the laws, a journalist can be punished for publishing false information - even if he does not realise the information is incorrect. Zimbabwe’s government claims that the laws act to ensure that journalists behave ethically. > > \< snip \> > > Meldrum’s case was dismissed in July because the hearing found that while he had published the story, he had checked his facts closely but the police had not cooperated with his enquiries. His colleagues on the News may not be able to use the same defence. However, their lawyer succeeded in persuading the magistrate that the court had no jurisdiction on their case due to its constitutional nature: Despite Zimbabwe’s new laws, its constitution guarantees freedom of expression. So, we’re lucky that _any_ news about the situation in Zimbabwe gets out, let alone news about the “killing fields” of elephants. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/27 "2002-09-24T21:12:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > The liberal orthodoxy is that all the problems of Africa are caused by colonialism. Ah, one of our knee-jerk Liberal-Conservative divide nabobs. > [@](#): > > We have seen an example of this kind of thinking from **Collounsbury**. (Too bad about **december** handing you your ass, old boy - better luck next time.) Handing me my ass? My dear Shodan, your skills in reading appear to need some remedial assistance. Or perhaps you are unable to function outside of a nice simple round peg square peg ideological world and december’s inability to follow my statement looks like ‘handing me my ass.’ Now as to the substance, your straw man fails my dear fellow. My position is clear, and reiterated many times in the past: Colonial rule had a large number of negative effects and largely created the negative political framework for much of the post-colonial troubles through the present. Borders generally at variance with local conceptions of power distribution, hostile communities thrown into one state without local perception of rational for control or history thereof, history of abusive govermental power exercise. All these things are clear historical facts, and to deny their relevance is either stupidity, ignorance (ideologically conditioned or not) or bigotry, or all three. At the same time the issue of how to work out the history, and deal with locally derived, nurtured and created political society maladaptation resides with locals and local habits. The sole manner of unwinding the same is to allow a political equilibruim to emerge on a local basis. International interventions, massive aid support to vampire regimes etc. only prolong the process of digesting the modern geopolitical condition. You can natter on about liberals and whatever, this has nothing to do with my analysis. As to the remainder, what I see is a collection of assertions from someone whose ideologically driven obsessions raise the issue of selection bias / self selected misinformation every bit as important as what DDG demonstrated above in re Zim coverage. For example > [@](#): > > Same as when Viet Nam and Cambodia were a big deal in the US, so long as we were fighting there (and there was a draft). Once we got out, Pol Pot and his ilk could make the streets run with blood and everyone looked the other way. No stick for beating up the colonialist powers, you see. Assertions. Lovely things, above all for creating little self-contained ideological fantasy worlds but let’s speak to evidence. Of course the prime problem (we can lay aside the form of US presence in the region essentially generating the Khemrs Rouges) to start with is Pol Pot’s regime expelling journalists. As little to nothing was known, well clearly coverage in the West fell off. Navel gazing, not ideology. Now, to truly discuss this point, we need to get into some analysis of the actual coverage and some means to think about a play off between presence driving Western media coverage versus ideology – else it’s really just a shadow game where self-serving assertion rules. Save your regards for when they mean something. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/28 "2002-09-25T13:06:21Z")
Is racism by blacks more acceptable than racism by whites? Mugabe has been seizing white-owned farms, and taking them for himslf and his cronies. Many of these farms are owned by white Zimbabwean citizens…whre are the anti-racist people on this one? Whay hasn’t nelson mandela spoken out against black-sponsored racism? And, when Zimbabwe is reduced to economic ruin (the country was once a major exporter of food, now an importer), who will Mugabe blame? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/29 "2002-09-25T13:30:26Z")
**ralph** , there may not be anything about it where you are, but in the UK there has been highly public outrage. I think any reasoning that Mugabe isn’t being impugned for racism because he’s black is total and utter bilge. Mybe the media wherever you live isn’t covering it because it’s considered insignificant. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/30 "2002-09-25T13:41:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > Is racism by blacks more acceptable than racism by whites? No. > [@](#): > > Mugabe has been seizing white-owned farms, and taking them for himslf and his cronies. Many of these farms are owned by white Zimbabwean citizens…whre are the anti-racist people on this one? I don’t know, I personally find the whole affaire sad and disreputable. The saddest part of course being that this eye for an eye thing has done nothing good for the average Zimbabwean. Eye for an eye – the reference there is in re how the white land got that way, siezed at gunpoint right through the 1950s – in this instance was largely unnecessary. Land reform was necessary, and Great Britain was ready to fund a transparent process, which might have had the double benefit of (a) securing the title of the white farmers who would recieve payment and perhaps buy back land (b) transferring productive land in a _transparent, non-corrupt_ manner back to the black population from whom it had been siezed some 50-100 years before. The Brit/Commonwealth plan could have been a win-win situation. However > [@](#): > > Whay hasn’t nelson mandela spoken out against black-sponsored racism? To rephrase this, why hasn’t Nelson Mandela spoken out against Mugabe and cronies? I don’t know that he has not. Our absense of knowledge on the matter does not mean he has not. As a general matter, South Africans all around seem reluctant to comment on Zim bec. they have direct involvement in how Zim got to be a mess. The Apartheid gov’t supported Ian Smith and his murderers, Mugabe’s own band gave support and cover to the ANC post Zim independence. Both sides have ties, dirty hands or old friendships and connections, especially the ANC. Rather like a crazy aunt in the attic, my impression they rather wish Mugabe would just kick off. You might ask why the US took has frequently been silent on our old friend’s abuses. Same reasons and rule, sad truth of political relationships. > [@](#): > > And, when Zimbabwe is reduced to economic ruin (the country was once a major exporter of food, now an importer), who will Mugabe blame? Evil colonialists. He would be right only insofar as Ian Smith and his disreputable bunch of nasty racists helped create the monster that is Mugabe through a long and unforgiving civil war, instead of having a smooth and just exit from Apartheid. Of course Mugabe is largely responsible for Mugabe, he let the hate that was bred pre-1979 eat him up (as well as I am sure greed), unlike Mandela. Regretably no one of Mandela’s stature emerged from the Zim indep. movement. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/31 "2002-09-25T14:03:06Z")
May 2000. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/739258.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/739258.stm) > [@](#): > > Sunday, 7 May, 2000, 08:08 GMT 09:08 UK > Mandela adds to Mugabe pressure > > Former South African President Nelson Mandela has criticised “African tyrants”, in remarks appeared to be targeted at Zimbabwe’s President Robert Mugabe. > > \< snip \> > > Speaking in Johannesburg at the launch of a new Unicef initiative to help deprived children, Mr Mandela said: “There are leaders in Africa…who have made enormous wealth, leaders who once commanded liberation armies…Rubbing shoulders with the rich, the powerful, the wealthy has made some leaders despise the very people who put them in power and they think it is their privilege to be there for eternity…Some have a reason for not wanting to step down because in the course of their presidency they have committed crimes for which they can be investigated and charged…” > > He said the South African Government’s use of diplomatic channels to deal with such issues was “the best way of doing so”. But he said the public did not have to follow such methods and should bring tyrants down by “picking up rifles…That is the lesson of history. The tyrants of today can be destroyed by you and I am confident that you have the capacity to do so,” he added. > > Earlier on Saturday, Mr Mandela backed “equitable” change to land ownership in Zimbabwe, where “50% of the land… is owned by whites”. He told BBC Radio 4’s Today that change was essential. But he insisted that “there should be no violence” and argued that “matters of this nature must be settled through negotiation”. > > \< snip \> > > Asked if he was referring to Mr Mugabe, Mr Mandela said: “Everybody knows who I am talking about.” The same story in the _Sunday Times_, “South Africa’s Best Selling Newspaper”. They assumed he was referring to Mugabe, too. [http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2000/05/07/news/news01.htm](http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2000/05/07/news/news01.htm) > [@](#): > > Mandela blasts Mugabe > > Southern Africa and UK split over how to resolve crisis. > > CORNIA PRETORIUS and MONDLI MAKHANYA in Johannesburg and JUSTICE MALALA in London > > FORMER President Nelson Mandela yesterday launched a scathing attack on Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe, calling him a “tyrant”. > > Speaking in Johannesburg , Mandela said that while he fully supported President Thabo Mbeki’s diplomatic approach to the crisis, “the masses don’t have to follow that route”. > > Without mentioning Mugabe by name, Mandela decried former liberation leaders who “despise the people who put them in power and want to stay in power forever”. So did the Namibians. [http://www.namibian.com.na/Netstories/2000/May/Africa/007A98DA73.html](http://www.namibian.com.na/Netstories/2000/May/Africa/007A98DA73.html) > [@](#): > > Mandela expresses anger at Mugabe > > CAPE TOWN - Former South African President Nelson Mandela has slammed Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe, labelling him a tyrant who has held on to power for too long. > > Mandela, who launched the global partnership for Children of the United Nation’s Children Fund with his wife Graca Machel in Johannesburg on Saturday, said some African leaders had liberated their countries, but had then overstayed their welcome. Then, in October 2000… [http://www.mdczimbabwe.com/archivemat/other/regional/zimstd001001atxt.htm](http://www.mdczimbabwe.com/archivemat/other/regional/zimstd001001atxt.htm) > [@](#): > > Mandela crticises Mugabe > The Zimbabwe Standard, > October 01, 2000 > > FORMER South African president Nelson Mandela has for the first time openly criticised President Mugabe for clinging to power for too long and for using violence to sustain his leadership. In an interview with a South African newspaper on Friday, Mandela said Mugabe should realise that he had stayed in power for too long and time was ripe for him to retire. > > “I would have wished that somebody would talk to him (Mugabe) to say: ‘Look, you have been in office for 20 years. It’s time to step down,’” said Mandela in an interview… > > Mandela abhorred Mugabe’s use of violence and promotion of lawlessness. While he accepted the skewed distribution of land between blacks and whites in Zimbabwe, Mandela said, there was no need to use violence to reverse the problem. Mandela, South Africa’s first post apartheid president and one of the world’s most revered statesman, said he had reservations about “Mugabe’s use of violence and the corroding of the rule of law”… I’m not having any luck finding the (what must have been) September 2000 interview itself. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/32 "2002-09-25T14:04:56Z")
[Mandela criticizes Mugabe](http://www.mdczimbabwe.com/archivemat/other/regional/zimstd001001atxt.htm) > [@](#): > > While he accepted the skewed distribution of land between blacks and whites in Zimbabwe, Mandela said, there was no need to use violence to reverse the problem. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/33 "2002-09-25T14:06:45Z")
Oh, beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/34 "2002-09-25T14:12:05Z")
DDG, I stand in awe of your mastery - I had a vague memory of the cited statements but was too lazy to look it up. The Lesson here is: (a) If you are ignorant of a situation, do not try to characterize it. (b) North American newsmedia, esp. broadcast media, is a piss-poor means of developing a good view of overseas developments, in general. I see the same thing constantly in re Q “why hasn’t” [The Muslims/Islam etc] condemned/said something etc. in re terror/11 Sep etc. The questioner usually not having the knowledge to phrase it that way, but rather it should be, “has…”? This of course is more the fault of navel gazing than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/35 "2002-09-25T14:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\* > Colonial rule had a large number of negative effects and largely created the negative political framework for much of the post-colonial troubles through the present. Borders generally at variance with local conceptions of power distribution, hostile communities thrown into one state without local perception of rational for control or history thereof, history of abusive govermental power exercise. All these things are clear historical facts, and to deny their relevance is either stupidity, ignorance (ideologically conditioned or not) or bigotry, or all three._\* Horse hockey. Tribal leaders and their followers were attacking and killing other tribes from time immemorial in sub-Saharan Africa. To pretend that they are only doing so post-1950 or so, and to blame it on colonialism, is to ignore the whole history of that benighted continent. Magabe was famously advised when the transition to black majority rule was supposed to be beginning, “Hold on to your whites.” (Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa by Keith Richburg). He is not taking this advice. Certainly the economic structures being dismantled by Mugabe and his cronies were imposed on the country by people motivated more by self-interest and racism than by altruism. But the only reason productive farms existed to feed the nation, and to be broken up by Mugabe, was because there was enough political stability during the colonial period to allow food to be grown to feed the nation. Mugabe is simply returning his nation to its _status quo ante_ of subsistence farming punctuated by massacre. If there had been no colonial period in Africa, the lives of its people would still have been “nasty, poor, brutish, and short”. There would have been less to fight over, but no less fighting. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/36 "2002-09-25T14:50:34Z")
I would hardly classify Mugabe’s actions as tribal. In fact, I’d say that particular analysis is patronising at best. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/37 "2002-09-25T14:57:54Z")
I will do that one better, I will characterize Shodan’s “analysis” as contemptiblely racist, viz: > [@](#): > > If there had been no colonial period in Africa, the lives of its people would still have been “nasty, poor, brutish, and short”. Is pure racism. I will return to engage the facts of the matter, developmental questions and some substantive citations on historical and economic development a bit later on when I have cleared my desk of paying work. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/38 "2002-09-26T11:24:23Z")
I have no claim to be an expert in the history of sub-Saharan Africa, but even I know that to characterize that history as one of “subsistence farming punctuated by massacre” is, plainly and simply, untrue. I did a brief web search and turned up [this outline](http://campus.northpark.edu/history//WebChron/Africa/Africa.html) of the history of the region. There’s a great deal more out there; certainly enough to demonstrate that “that benighted continent” has a long, rich history, including the development of several advanced cultures. The image **Shodan** presents is simply not accurate. As to Zimbabwe (and it would be helpful to consider the origin of that name); although the BBC is currently banned from reporting from within Zimbabwe, its reporters (at no small risk to themselves) are still giving the people of this country a picture of what’s going on. I’d assume that Zimbabwe is considered more newsworthy in the UK than in the US - it is, after all, a former colonial possession, and thus, arguably, our mess. Mugabe is certainly playing the anti-colonialist card as hard and often as he can, but his threadbare rhetoric is increasingly failing to convince. His policy of letting loose the mobs, to target easy hate figures in the form of the remaining white farmers (and, _not_ incidentally, to suppress his political opponents in the rest of the country) looks, to me, like a destructive and desperately short-sighted attempt to retain personal power at whatever cost to his country. In that, he is comparable to any number of dictators, in a whole range of skin colours. What about the animals? They have to be a secondary concern; if Zimbabwe’s economic infrastructure is sufficiently damaged, the conservation effort will be a luxury the country can no longer afford. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/39 "2002-09-26T13:37:19Z")
Interesting what happens when you play around with Shodan’s statement: > [@](#): > > \*If there had been no colonial period in **North America** , the lives of its people would still have been “nasty, poor, brutish, and short”. \*Well, Shodan, agree or disagree? Does it fly? And here we are at Rudyard Kipling again. 😃 [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/kipling.html](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/kipling.html) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293/40 "2002-09-26T13:51:45Z")
Bits and pieces. [http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/meanings/254050.html](http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/meanings/254050.html) > [@](#): > > Thomas Hobbes, in Leviathan. ‘No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.’ Left out “solitary”. Origin of the name “Zimbabwe”. [http://kalamumagazine.com/african\_country\_name\_origin.htm](http://kalamumagazine.com/african_country_name_origin.htm) > [@](#): > > Zimbabwe - Zimbabwe was named after Great Zimbabwe an ancient trading empire dating back to the Iron Age. Zimbabwe means Stone Houses in the local Shona Language. About Great Zimbabwe. “Not much is known…” Except that they left huge stone ruins behind. [http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/Africa/GreatZimbabwe.html](http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/Africa/GreatZimbabwe.html) Condensed “bullet point” history of Zimbabwe. [http://www.africanet.com/africanet/country/zimbabwe/history.htm](http://www.africanet.com/africanet/country/zimbabwe/history.htm) The BBC’s “key dates in the history of Zimbabwe” which amusingly enough seem to start with 1965. Oh, well… [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special\_report/1998/12/98/zimbabwe/226542.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1998/12/98/zimbabwe/226542.stm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimbabwe-as-if-it-wasnt-bad-enough-already/129293.md?page=3)