# Zimmerman/Martin - how did this get to be about race? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487 "2013-07-14T16:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/181 "2013-07-15T19:46:59Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Bullshit. I am done wasting my time with you. You are disingenuous and completely full of shit. Own your words, sir. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Pretty much. But obviously, context matters here. I think most people would have a reasonable fear for their safety if they were being followed closely by unidentified non-LEO, who could physically harm them, at night, in an isolated area, who declined numerous opportunities to identify himself or defuse the situation. The fact that you followed someone under those circumstances is grounds for getting punched in the face if it comes to that. Should you be beaten to death? No, but there is not evidence that was a real likelihood in this case. Which is it? Should you not be beaten to death because it’s wrong, or is it merely unlikely and thus not worth discussing? What you wrote supports both. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/182 "2013-07-15T19:48:32Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > If you aren’t going by his testimony then how are you basing your claims? Why do you believe that Zimmerman started the fight? I am mostly saying it was Zimmerman’s behavior that allowed for a fight to happen to begin with. That in and of itself makes him morally responsible for most of the repercussions. But to answer your direct question, I just tend to find that people looking for trouble, with a modest history of illegality, racism, and violence, and a who lie about their [finances](http://gawker.com/5915713/george-zimmermans-lawyer-admits-his-client-lied-about-his-finances) in court, tend to be less believable. It just strikes as fairly unlikely that this dirtbag just happened to meet another guy looking for a fight with a stranger. > [@aag3981](#): > > Let’s just say that Zimmerman is a raging racist and racially profiled Martin. Per what is known, he followed Martin, for what ever reason and it is reasonable to see that Martin felt threatened by the behavior. The point is who confronted who. The question is when said confrontation began in earnest. You can argue from a legal perspective it began when the first person threw the punch, but that moment was only possible because Zimmerman followed him. Why didn’t Zimmerman just yell to him as soon as he saw him, explaining who he was, and why he was talking to him? He had 100 different ways to avoid what might become an ugly situation, yet he picked the one most likely to lead to something bad happening. That is indefensible to me. > [@aag3981](#): > > Regardless of Zimmerman’s motivations, what if he did stop following Martin, as he ascerts, is completely reasonable to believe considering time line, and Martin came back and confronted him. There isn’t enough known to determine. Why would any reasonable person do that though? If Martin was intent on beating him up, why didn’t he confront Zimmerman after he immediately noticed him. This idea that he just up and decides to turn the tables on Zimmerman seems far fetched. > [@aag3981](#): > > Please, also tell me how your examples being hypotheticals make them any less poor. You still are advocating gross over responses. I disagree. Such responses happen all the time, and regardless of how you would act, are foreseeable to most people. > [@aag3981](#): > > Also, I would like to see a cite where social science disagrees with me. Some people fight, some people flee, almost no one can know what they will do in the situation. That’s the point. You are implying people don’t fight, and that it’s unreasonable to expect them to. It isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/183 "2013-07-15T19:49:15Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Or you can not excise the important part of the quote: > > So at this point, I think it’s pretty clear you are not debating in good faith. Either retract your statement, or explain why you misquoted me. > > Enough to get this person away from them, or to repel what they deem to be an immediate threat. > > Let me clarify. You believe a physically imposing person is running towards you. Is it reasonable for you to brace yourself and to push them out of your way before they get too close? Must you wait before they hit you before you react physically? > > In certain contexts, yes. Again, if someone breaks into my house. Should I wait until they assault me before I react? Or course not. The context there is that this guy not only broke the law, but (more importantly) is engaging in behavior that can reasonably considered threatening. Similarly, a good majority of people consider being followed by a strange man at night threatening. > > Care to elaborate how that substantiates your previous claim? Ok then, by your own logic, Martin over reached. If was on top of him slamming Zimmerman’s head into the concrete. Martin wasn’t being forced to continue the fight. Why not get up and run? And again your analogies, er, hypotheticals are poor. If someone was running straight for you, the fact that they were running toward you would be a threat. If someone broke into your house, they would already present a threat. Someone following you into an apartment building is not a threat. While I’m sure Zimmerman’s pursuit of Martin threatened him, if he stopped and because to walk back to his vehicle, the threat would be extinguished and Martin would then because the threat if he confronted Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/184 "2013-07-15T19:51:58Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Wrong. They felt they couldn’t demonstrate it in a court of law. There are already two people on record accusing him of being a racist. [http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/07/12/155918/more-evidence-released-in-trayvon.html#.UeRSa20ddEZ](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/07/12/155918/more-evidence-released-in-trayvon.html#.UeRSa20ddEZ) After interviewing nearly three dozen people in the George Zimmerman murder case, the FBI found no evidence that racial bias was a motivating factor in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, records released Thursday show. Nothing about “court of law” there… Federal agents interviewed Zimmerman’s neighbors and co-workers, but none said Zimmerman had expressed racial animus at any time prior to the Feb. 26 shooting of Martin, a black teen, in a confrontation at a Sanford housing complex. As Sanford police investigated the circumstances of Martin’s death, the FBI opened a parallel probe to determine if Martin’s civil rights had been violated. Several co-workers said they had never seen Zimmerman display any prejudice or racial bias. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/185 "2013-07-15T20:03:49Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > No, you’re saying that a) you can prove that he’s a speed demon in the past and b) in doing so, this particular incident necessitates GZ’s speeding. No, I am saying that he was a speed demon in the past, and that there is both evidence of his speeding in this case, and that said speeding was what allowed the accident to happen. > [@pancakes3](#): > > Evidence being… neighbors recounting GZ using racial slurs, the dispatcher recounting GZ using racial slurs Did you read the link: > [@](#): > > The statements, made by a woman referred to only as Witness 9, paint the picture of a man raised in a racist family who disliked minorities unless they fit a certain mold. > > “Because growing up, they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people,” Witness 9 told investigators Jim Post and Jim Rick during a March interview. > > “They talk a lot of, a lot of bad things about black people,” she added. > > Witness 9 said she came forward because she was afraid Zimmerman may have attacked 17-year-old Trayvon Martin “because the kid was black.” If your standard of evidence is that he has to basically tell the operator he is following him because he is Black, I don’t think anyone would ever be convicted. > [@pancakes3](#): > > As stated above, you seem to feel that if GZ had no racist impetus at all, he wouldn’t be on neighborhood watch, looking for “punks”. He absolutely would. He could be motivated in other ways. He hates kids. He hates punk looking kids. What is a “punk looking kid”? Either way, I can’t address some hypothetical about what he would have done if he wasn’t himself. I think the guy, as he actual is, would not have followed Martin had he been a White kid. Can you prove such a thing? No, but the evidence suggests that race is a major condition for him deciding to engage. > [@pancakes3](#): > > No. It has to be race. We’re not arguing prudancy. We’re arguing motivation here and whether it was a racist one or not. Okay, how does that address the comment you quoted? I specifically mentioned prudence as something people were not arguing. You seem to agree. Where is the beef here? > [@pancakes3](#): > > If you’re going to take circumstantial evidence from the past as if it’s fair game, then you should also allow the character evidence taken on Trayvon for being a petty burglar, drug user, aggressor, etc. to paint the worst possible image of Martin as well. Care to cite any of those things? ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/186 "2013-07-15T20:04:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do a thought experiment. And then asks yourself some questions. > > Do you think Zimmerman would have pegged Trayvon as suspicious and “up to no good” if he’d been anyone other than a black male? If the kid had been a white girl dressed in black hoodie and khaki pants, would he have trailed her first in his truck and then on foot? > > If Trayvon had been anyone other than a black male, would people have blindly swallowed Zimmerman story of being sucker punched, beaten, and smothered, all without provocation? If Trayvon had been a white girl, would people be inclined to see the injuries on Zimmerman’s head as evidence that the girl had stood _her_ ground? Or would they insist Zimmerman was the victim a feral proto-human attack? If Trayvon had been white, would people assume he was a rational actor and strongly consider that, if he did hit Zimmerman, he did so for good cause? Or would they assume he attacked Zimmerman out of the blue, for no reason at all? > > And if Zimmerman was a black man who killed a white teenager, do you think the NRA and SYG advocates would have rallied behind him? Do you think Hannity would have invited him on his show? Do you think a black man attributing his actions to “God’s plan” would have been patted on the back by white conservatives? Or do you think he would have been vilified much like Trayvon was vilified? > > People who think this case is about race are confident that just about every aspect of what happened would be different if the races were reversed. Do you honestly disagree? I am probably going to catch a rash of sh\*t over this but when people try and provide an example to make their point they always go to the diametrically opposed end in hopes of scoring points but its BS. To compare a black male youth - who clearly have a higher propensity for crime - to a “white girl” is just self serving. Let me give you just a few better examples… if I saw a ANY OF THE FOLLOWING acting as Trayvon did, on a rainy dark night in an area that had recently had multiple break-ins, then I would be very suspicious and would act no different (among the group, not saying my actions would be same as GZ just my alertness): 1. Tattooed up muscular WHITE guy jogging pants and tank top 2. Skinny tattooed up, long haired stoner guy in a Megadeth jacket 3. Hispanic biker type with leathers and a chain wallet 4. Strung out looking white guy or girl 5. ANY MALE KID/Young Adult between the ages of 16-21 Now let me give you a few examples where I can definitely say I would act differently and have a different alert level: 1. Little old or man lady in walker regardless of race 2. Little old lady or man with a dog on lease regardless of race 3. Pretty middle aged woman with umbrella regardless of race 4. The aforementioned “white girl” Who in the RIGHT MIND can honestly say that you/we must treat every person, every age, every gender, every race along with every choice of attire the SAME? That is madness and this case highlighted so much that is wrong with the VERY GROUP that seem to feel the most oppressed. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/187 "2013-07-15T20:08:26Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > Ok then, by your own logic, Martin over reached. If was on top of him slamming Zimmerman’s head into the concrete. Martin wasn’t being forced to continue the fight. Why not get up and run? Because once a fight starts, you don’t always have a measured response. He may have overreacted, but this would not have happened were it not for Zimmerman. That is the point. > [@aag3981](#): > > And again your analogies, er, hypotheticals are poor. If someone was running straight for you, the fact that they were running toward you would be a threat. You cannot prove someone is actually running towards you as opposed to running past you. That is a judgment call. > [@aag3981](#): > > While I’m sure Zimmerman’s pursuit of Martin threatened him, if he stopped and because to walk back to his vehicle, the threat would be extinguished and Martin would then because the threat if he confronted Zimmerman. How would Martin know that? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/188 "2013-07-15T20:12:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > After interviewing nearly three dozen people in the George Zimmerman murder case, the FBI found no evidence that racial bias was a motivating factor in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, records released Thursday show. “Evidence” means, statements that can be used in a court of law to substantiate the claim that racial bias was a motivating factor in the shooting. It doesn’t mean there was no person or persons who accused Zimmerman of racism. We have at least two people on record of doing so. ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/189 "2013-07-15T20:16:58Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I am mostly saying it was Zimmerman’s behavior that allowed for a fight to happen to begin with. That in and of itself makes him morally responsible for most of the repercussions. > > But to answer your direct question, I just tend to find that people looking for trouble, with a modest history of illegality, racism, and violence, and a who lie about their [finances](http://gawker.com/5915713/george-zimmermans-lawyer-admits-his-client-lied-about-his-finances) in court, tend to be less believable. It just strikes as fairly unlikely that this dirtbag just happened to meet another guy looking for a fight with a stranger. > > The question is when said confrontation began in earnest. You can argue from a legal perspective it began when the first person threw the punch, but that moment was only possible because Zimmerman followed him. > > Why didn’t Zimmerman just yell to him as soon as he saw him, explaining who he was, and why he was talking to him? He had 100 different ways to avoid what might become an ugly situation, yet he picked the one most likely to lead to something bad happening. That is indefensible to me. > > Why would any reasonable person do that though? If Martin was intent on beating him up, why didn’t he confront Zimmerman after he immediately noticed him. This idea that he just up and decides to turn the tables on Zimmerman seems far fetched. > > I disagree. Such responses happen all the time, and regardless of how you would act, are foreseeable to most people. > > That’s the point. You are implying people don’t fight, and that it’s unreasonable to expect them to. It isn’t. I’m not arguing from a legal standpoint. That argument has been had. The testimony states that Zimmerman stopped following Martin and at some point the confrontation resumed. It absolutely depends on who restarted the confrontation. But lets say the confrontation never stoped. Martin could have stopped the confrontation too. He could have identified himself, stated his father lived in the neighborhood, when he had Zimmerman pinned to the ground, stop slamming his head in the ground and run for help. The responses you advocate esculate a situation to violence and leads to actual laws being broken. Also, I have not implied people don’t fight. I don’t believe that is what most people reflexively do and in the hypotheticals you provide, they generally shouldn’t. I believe most people flee, or phsically attack enough to give them the opportunity to flee. Also by your logic and how you perceive Zimmerman, Martin was a delinquent, drug user and a racist as well. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/190 "2013-07-15T20:18:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I urge you never to put your ideas into practice; if you punch someone just for following you, you will go to jail. Yep. What you do is you kill them; _then_ you’re a “hero”. Just like Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/191 "2013-07-15T20:22:43Z")
> [@Tacit\_Knowledge](#): > > No > > No, I called out black people for being people. Race has nothing to do with it. The race card is almost never appropriate. It’s just a hedge blacks use to gain an unfair advantage in the judgement process by implying that their actions/misdeeds are less important that their black-ness. You called out Trayvon for a thug even though he was being stalked by a lunatic with a gun. That you didn’t think Zimmerman was is racist. And you ignored the racial angle Zimmerman portrayed Trayvon as and think race wasn’t a factor. That race card, when Trayvon was being stalked simply because he was black and wearing something Zimmerman didn’t like, is apt. It was due to race that Zimmerman followed him and due to race that Martin’s clothing was being used against him ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/192 "2013-07-15T20:24:17Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > Also by your logic and how you perceive Zimmerman, Martin was a delinquent, drug user and a racist as well. > [@brickbacon](#): > > > [@pancakes3](#): > > > > If you’re going to take circumstantial evidence from the past as if it’s fair game, then you should also allow the character evidence taken on Trayvon for being a petty burglar, drug user, aggressor, etc. to paint the worst possible image of Martin as well. > > Care to cite any of those things? Our apologies. We just assumed that since you were so ardent in your background of the case, we didn’t have to cite it seeing as it was common knowledge along with the fact that it was not SYG, the issues with Zimmerman’s previous run-ins with the law, etc. I guess in your careful and unbiased following of the case you must have missed the attempts of the prosecution to bring up (futilely) character issues of Trayvon. > **[Yahoo News: Latest and Breaking News, Headlines, Live Updates, and More](https://news.yahoo.com/)** > > The latest news and headlines from Yahoo News. Get breaking news stories and in-depth coverage with videos and photos. [http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2013/05/trayvon-martin-character-evidence-or-character-assassination/](http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2013/05/trayvon-martin-character-evidence-or-character-assassination/) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/193 "2013-07-15T20:24:55Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > “Evidence” means, statements that can be used in a court of law to substantiate the claim that racial bias was a motivating factor in the shooting. It doesn’t mean there was no person or persons who accused Zimmerman of racism. We have at least two people on record of doing so. Are those two people’s statements not “evidence”? Is the FBI incompetent? ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/194 "2013-07-15T20:36:46Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Because once a fight starts, you don’t always have a measured response. He may have overreacted, but this would not have happened were it not for Zimmerman. That is the point. > > You cannot prove someone is actually running towards you as opposed to running past you. That is a judgment call. > > How would Martin know that? Well ok, but that bases the assumption that Zimmerman is lying, lied on multiple occasions, lied while taking a lie detector and lied while under oath, when he said that he stopped pursuing Martin and Martin then confronted him. Unfortunately, what ever happened between Zimmerman hanging up with 911 and their fight is unknowned so kinda useless to assume that it was because of Zimmerman that the fight was started since we don’t know what actually started the fight. I believe I am a pretty good just at someone that is running by my and someone that is about to bull rush me and as far as I’m concerned, if they are playing a game of chicken, that is just as good as bull rushing me. Also, I can’t know what Martin did or didn’t know. I try not to deal to much in vague hypotheticals. All I can use to judge is with the evidence available and that’s Zimmerman’s testimony and you have already heard that. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/195 "2013-07-15T20:36:58Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Our apologies. We just assumed that since you were so ardent in your background of the case, we didn’t have to cite it seeing as it was common knowledge along with the fact that it was not SYG, the issues with Zimmerman’s previous run-ins with the law, etc. Actually, I was giving you/others the benefit of the doubt in asking what specific evidence you were referring to that substantiates those claims. > [@Terr](#): > > Are those two people’s statements not “evidence”? Is the FBI incompetent? No, it is not evidence of the question the FBI was attempting to answer. But, the FBI is often incompetent regardless of what happened here. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/196 "2013-07-15T20:38:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yep. What you do is you kill them; _then_ you’re a “hero”. Just like Zimmerman. What case was that? I must have missed it due to all the press the Zimmerman case has been getting. ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/197 "2013-07-15T20:43:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > “Evidence” means, statements that can be used in a court of law to substantiate the claim that racial bias was a motivating factor in the shooting. It doesn’t mean there was no person or persons who accused Zimmerman of racism. We have at least two people on record of doing so. Ok, but 30 claimed otherwise. I don’t know why 7 of 9 phone calls that you use as evidence of Zimmerman’s racial profiling is evidence of his racist views, but the FBI’s findings that out of 30 people only 2 claim that he holds racist views and that the FBI found no evidence of racial bias does nothing to convince you otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/198 "2013-07-15T20:48:13Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > Well ok, but that bases the assumption that Zimmerman is lying, lied on multiple occasions, lied while taking a lie detector and lied while under oath, when he said that he stopped pursuing Martin and Martin then confronted him. Unfortunately, what ever happened between Zimmerman hanging up with 911 and their fight is unknowned so kinda useless to assume that it was because of Zimmerman that the fight was started since we don’t know what actually started the fight. > > I believe I am a pretty good just at someone that is running by my and someone that is about to bull rush me and as far as I’m concerned, if they are playing a game of chicken, that is just as good as bull rushing me. > > Also, I can’t know what Martin did or didn’t know. I try not to deal to much in vague hypotheticals. All I can use to judge is with the evidence available and that’s Zimmerman’s testimony and you have already heard that. We know Zimmerman has lied about matters related to this case. His actions are part of what got his wife charged with perjury. I agree its a bit unfair to speculate who threw then first punch. That’s partially why I would argue his actions immediately beforehand are more important and consequential to the outcome here. Either way, self defense cases where the other side cannot testify on account of being killed are inherently hard to prove. But I don’t think it’s fair to deem the killer’s statements as real evidence. Also, are you say someone running at you playing chicken is the same as actually trying to attack? That you feel fine defending yourself physically in either case? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/199 "2013-07-15T20:53:10Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > Ok, but 30 claimed otherwise. I don’t know why 7 of 9 phone calls that you use as evidence of Zimmerman’s racial profiling is evidence of his racist views, but the FBI’s findings that out of 30 people only 2 claim that he holds racist views and that the FBI found no evidence of racial bias does nothing to convince you otherwise. The FBI stated there was no evidence that the crime was motivated by race; not that Zimmerman isn’t a racist. Either way, it is shocking that one’s intimates, coworkers and the like would defend him/her? Would it be a shock that someone would not be openly racist at work in general? Let’s take an another example. Do you think Zimmerman’s dad is racist? Do you think he thinks he is racist? Do you think his friends would tell the FBI he is a racist? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/200 "2013-07-15T21:01:04Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The FBI stated there was no evidence that the crime was motivated by race; not that Zimmerman isn’t a racist. There’s pretty much nothing less to discuss at this point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487.md?page=11)