# Zimmerman/Martin - how did this get to be about race? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487 "2013-07-14T16:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/21 "2013-07-14T17:47:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry, but I disagree. If Trayvon had been white, I think it’s very possible Zimmerman would have acted the same way. Many of Zimmerman’s prior 911 calls were about non-black “suspicious people.” His actions amounted to more than just calling 911. Is there any evidence he followed and confronted any other people? I concede you have a fair point, but given both his brother and father’s clearly racist and delusional comments, and George’s racial comments, I think there is a good amount of circumstantial evidence that Zimmerman likely didn’t generally hold Black people and some other minorities in high regard. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/22 "2013-07-14T17:49:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, shouldn’t have been a trial? Am I falling victim to Poe’s Law, here? Of course there should have been a trial, that’s blindingly obvious. How else are the authorities supposed to decide whether it was self-defense or not? There should only be a trial if there is probable cause to believe a crime was committed, and a good-faith belief on the part of the prosecutors that thy can prove the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. The authorities are supposed to investigate and determine if those standards are met. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/23 "2013-07-14T17:49:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So your evidence that race was not a factor in the Zimmerman case is to bring up a similar case where the races were reversed and a black guy shot a white teenager. And Zimmerman was found not guilty and the black guy was convicted. And to you, this is evidence that race is not an issue. It was a travesty that White was convicted of manslaughter (and, since NY is goofy, he had to face the illegal weapons charge.) Justice was served and he was pardoned and released. The issue is whether or not those of us in the evil, racist party/NRA would support the killing of a white teenager by a black male in self defense, and I, for one, certainly believe the white kid needed killin’. ---
**Author:** ![Passengernumber4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Passengernumber4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Passengernumber4)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/24 "2013-07-14T17:50:16Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Actually cannot follow anyone any time he wants. There are numerous laws regarding stalking and similar crimes. That is not the case here, but your contention is wrong. Either way, I did not allege he didn’t have a right to carry a gun. My point was that his actions in and of themselves will lead to tragic consequences a large percentage of the time. The idea that what he did was a-okay is just mind-boggling to me. George Zimmerman have every right to follow Trayvon Martin that night. It was not against the law in this case. It wasn’t stalking or anything even close to that. I don’t see how just following someone “will lead to tragic consequences a large percentage of the time.” I left out having a concealed weapon because, like me, he probably has it on him nearly 24/7. It really does not even matter that he had it until after being beat for 40 seconds when he finally used it. It’s mind-boggling to me that people think that following someone gives open ground to be attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/25 "2013-07-14T17:50:51Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > His actions amounted to more than just calling 911. Is there any evidence he followed and confronted any other people? I concede you have a fair point, but given both his brother and father’s clearly racist and delusional comments, and George’s racial comments, I think there is a good amount of circumstantial evidence that Zimmerman likely didn’t generally hold Black people and some other minorities in high regard. What racial comments did George make? And by what possible rationale do you impute anyone else’s comments to George? How many posts here bemoan a relative’s racism, sexism, or right-wingism? How many people have said, “I love my mom, but can’t stand being around her racist talk?” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/26 "2013-07-14T17:50:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Despite the acquittal, I still see this nonsense. > > Who cares if it’s “ok?” > > Why would you say, “..you think it’s okay to follow someone int he dark…?” > > The criminal trial was about whether the law was broken, not about what people think was “okay.” > > My view was that Zimmerman’s actions were pretty far from “okay.” But they were not actions that proved second-degree murder. > > Stop conflating these standards. Whether it’s legally valid or not in this particular case, it’s not “nonsense”. It’s reasonable for people to feel angry that an armed man can follow an unarmed teen for no good reason, and when a fight breaks out (possibly because the teen felt in fear for his life, though we’ll never know), shoot the teen, and get away scot free. It’s reasonable for people to argue that the law should be changed such that in the future, such a situation would result in the killer being convicted of a crime and getting prison time. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/27 "2013-07-14T17:51:31Z")
So you don’t think Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter, **Bricker**? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/28 "2013-07-14T17:51:52Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I didn’t realize you could be in an argument without wanting to be :dubious:. If you don’t want to argue with people, the price isn’t silence, or compromising your integrity, it’s just deciding not to make a disagreement contentious. But you know that already. Regardless, you don’t need to admit to me it’s shame and embarrassment driving your actions. I think most people who read your post see that. Besides, it’s a cross only you have to bear anyway. lolwut? I’m sorry, but have you been ignoring the case or the subsequent following reactions? A person must know when and where to speak up, and this just so happens to not be one of those times. That’s not shame; that’s called prudence. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/29 "2013-07-14T17:52:13Z")
Has anyone asked the question: “Why didn’t Trayvon just go home, lock the door, and call 911 to report a creepy white dude following him around?” Might this whole circus have been defused and avoided with this simple, sensible action? This is not meant to excuse Zimmerman’s actions prior to the confrontation (regardless of who instigated the confrontation) and subsequent shooting. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/30 "2013-07-14T17:52:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Despite the acquittal, I still see this nonsense. > > Who cares if it’s “ok?” > > Why would you say, “..you think it’s okay to follow someone int he dark…?” > > The criminal trial was about whether the law was broken, not about what people think was “okay.” > > My view was that Zimmerman’s actions were pretty far from “okay.” But they were not actions that proved second-degree murder. > > Stop conflating these standards. Once again, you conflate an opinion as a legal opinion. Did I allege he broke any laws, or that the verdict was legally incorrect? I said his action were likely to lead to bad things happening, and that that in and of themselves made them bad. If you want to contend that is not true, fine, but don’t pull your usually act of avoiding the issue. My comments said NOTHING about the legal case. You added that yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Passengernumber4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Passengernumber4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Passengernumber4)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/31 "2013-07-14T17:55:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > His actions amounted to more than just calling 911. Is there any evidence he followed and confronted any other people? I concede you have a fair point, but given both his brother and father’s clearly racist and delusional comments, and George’s racial comments, I think there is a good amount of circumstantial evidence that Zimmerman likely didn’t generally hold Black people and some other minorities in high regard. OK, now it’s obvious. **brickbacon** , you obviously did not watch this trial. George’s racial comments? Are you talking about where he said “he looks black” When the Non-Emergency operator asked is the suspect was white, black, or hispanic? Is that a racial comment to you? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/32 "2013-07-14T17:57:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So you don’t think Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter, **Bricker**? He obviously is not legally guilty, based on the jury verdict. But if a new jury, in a de novo trial, could see into his mind and see every event as it went down that night … that jury would find him guilty of manslaughter, in my opinion. The problem with an opinion like that is it’s useless in the real world: we don’t convict people except on actual evidence that can be adduced in a courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/33 "2013-07-14T17:59:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether it’s legally valid or not in this particular case, it’s not “nonsense”. It’s reasonable for people to feel angry that an armed man can follow an unarmed teen for no good reason, and when a fight breaks out (possibly because the teen felt in fear for his life, though we’ll never know), shoot the teen, and get away scot free. It’s reasonable for people to argue that the law should be changed such that in the future, such a situation would result in the killer being convicted of a crime and getting prison time. It’s NOT reasonable to express those views by saying, “People think it’s okay…” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/34 "2013-07-14T18:02:35Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Has anyone asked the question: “Why didn’t Trayvon just go home, lock the door, and call 911 to report a creepy white dude following him around?” If it’s so unfair to ask why a grown-ass man would say he had forgotten the name of his street…or ask why he would say he wasn’t following someone when he was clearly doing this…or ask just how in the hell you can come away from a brutal MMA-style fight with only a couple of scratches…or ask what the hell he was doing with his hands while being pummeled…or ask why he would say the fight started and ended in one location when the physical evidence indicated that it had moved around…or ask how it’s possible to be able to scream while being smothered at the same time…then it is extremely unfair for us to speculate why a teenage boy who was in an unfamiliar neighborhood, occupied by a phone conversation and a creepy guy trailing after him in the dark, would not immediately go home. The case is riddled with WTFs. And 99.9% of them come from Zimmerman’s side. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/35 "2013-07-14T18:03:20Z")
[Why the Zimmerman Jury Failed Us: The racism that resides at America’s core has led to the continual dehumanization of blacks.](http://www.theroot.com/views/why-zimmerman-jury-failed-us?wpisrc=root_more_news) — > [@](#): > > … We have not seen a moral failure this grave since a similarly all-white jury in Simi Valley, Calif., in 1992 acquitted the four LAPD officers who beat Rodney King. > > … > > The most elemental facts of this case will never change. A teenager went out to buy Skittles and iced tea. At some point, he was confronted by a man with a gun who killed him. _ **There is no universe I understand where this can be declared a noncriminal act. Not in a sane, just and racism-free universe.** _ > > There is only one universe in which such a judgment can happen. It is the same universe in which jurors can watch slow-motion video of four armed police officers beating a man and conclude that the man being beaten dictated everything that happened. > > Two features of this universe loom large. First, it requires immersion in a culture of contempt, derision and at bottom, profound dehumanization of African Americans, particularly black men. **You have to be well-prepared to believe the very worst about black people in order to reach such a conclusion.** In particular, you have to proceed as if that person constituted a different, lesser former of humanity. Without that deep-rooted bias in the American cultural fabric, we would find that people would readily bring a powerful sense of basic shared human insight and empathy to the Trayvon-Zimmerman encounter. > > Second, it requires that the panel judging whether or not a crime has taken place include not a single member of the victims’ racial background group. It really doesn’t work without that condition. > > … ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/36 "2013-07-14T18:05:58Z")
> [@Passengernumber4](#): > > Same evidence, same injuries, same witnesses. But the young adult is white and I would have no change in opinion. > > Edit: my opinion is self defense and this should never have been a trial. You are completely missing the point. If Trayvon was white there would have never been any evidence injuries or witnesses because that racist asshole wouldn’t have gotten of his ass to chase after a white kid. ---
**Author:** ![Passengernumber4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Passengernumber4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Passengernumber4)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/37 "2013-07-14T18:06:47Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Has anyone asked the question: “Why didn’t Trayvon just go home, lock the door, and call 911 to report a creepy white dude following him around?” > > Might this whole circus have been defused and avoided with this simple, sensible action? > > This is not meant to excuse Zimmerman’s actions prior to the confrontation (regardless of who instigated the confrontation) and subsequent shooting. Many people have asked. But it’s just ignored and replied with asking a question about something Zimmerman said. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/38 "2013-07-14T18:08:19Z")
> [@Passengernumber4](#): > > OK, now it’s obvious. **brickbacon** , you obviously did not watch this trial. > > George’s racial comments? Are you talking about where he said “he looks black” When the Non-Emergency operator asked is the suspect was white, black, or hispanic? Is that a racial comment to you? I think much of the country that decided this was racist did so after hearing NBC broadcast the police call. Here’s how NBC News, in a March 27, 2012, broadcast of the “Today” show, abridged the tape of Zimmerman’s comments to a police dispatcher on the evening of Feb. 26, 2012: > [@](#): > > Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black. They also quoted Zimmerman as saying “f----ng coons.” That solidified the narrative in many minds. Zimmerman was obviously a racist. But the actual, full version of the tape went a bit differently: > [@](#): > > Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about. > > Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic? > > Zimmerman: He looks black. And of course, what he actually says is “Fucking punks…” That’s a pretty dramatic re-edit, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/39 "2013-07-14T18:09:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Despite the acquittal, I still see this nonsense. > > Who cares if it’s “ok?” > > Why would you say, “..you think it’s okay to follow someone int he dark…?” > > The criminal trial was about whether the law was broken, not about what people think was “okay.” > > My view was that Zimmerman’s actions were pretty far from “okay.” But they were not actions that proved second-degree murder. > > Stop conflating these standards. The point of people making comments like this is that they believe that the legal standards as applied in this particular case might have been warned. Just like a stand your ground statute changes the standard for when a person can use deadly force in self defense (by removing any duty to retreat), discussions of these kinds in a lay context are almost always about the underlying question “should this be the standard”? It’s extremely frustrating that you always seem to pretend not to understand this. > [@ExTank](#): > > Has anyone asked the question: “Why didn’t Trayvon just go home, lock the door, and call 911 to report a creepy white dude following him around?” > > Might this whole circus have been defused and avoided with this simple, sensible action? An unarmed person who is shot and killed really doesn’t subject himself to the same level of scrutiny as a person who shoots and kills and unarmed person. There’s nothing unfair or unjust about that. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/40 "2013-07-14T18:09:21Z")
There is an old saying about how a lie can get half way round the world while the truth is still getting its boots on. There was so much misinformation about this case from the start. The first report was that Martin’s family was not contacted for three days because the police did not bother to identify the corpse despite his parents filing a missing persons report . It was also reported that Martin was screened for drugs, and Zimmerman was not. It was reporting the Zimmerman called Martin a coon. It was reported that Zimmerman was not questioned at the police station, that he had no injuries, and that his gun was returned to him. It was reported that Zimmerman was much bigger than Martin. It was reported that Zimmerman was ordered not to pursue Martin. All of this misinformation made it seem that the police were not investigating the shooting and had acted callously to his parents, because he was black. When all of the wrong statements it was too late, and people were already outraged and had an emotional stake in the case being about race. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487.md?page=3)