# Zimmerman/Martin - how did this get to be about race? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487 "2013-07-14T16:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/81 "2013-07-14T23:54:52Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m. > Type: TEL > Subject: Suspicious activity > Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts One of the 46 calls. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/82 "2013-07-14T23:55:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here is some [glee](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16470768#post16470768) for you. Wow. OK, point taken. That’s a poster I don’t recognize off the top of my head, but I agree with you: repulsive and disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/83 "2013-07-15T00:03:48Z")
> [@Tracijo67](#): > > I disagree. [Here](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html) is a list of all the calls he made. Most of the suspicious activity calls, when race was noted, were heavily coded “black male/s”. Why do you not also count the disturbance calls? Even your way, there’s 17 suspicious activity calls, and only seven involve black males. How is that “most?” Well? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/84 "2013-07-15T00:09:02Z")
No, George Zimmerman stepped out of his car in the presence of a _human being_. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/85 "2013-07-15T00:14:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why do you not also count the disturbance calls? > > Even your way, there’s 17 suspicious activity calls, and only seven involve black males. How is that “most?” > > Well? Anyone who calls to report a suspicious black 7 year old just might be holding some biases… ---
**Author:** ![Passengernumber4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Passengernumber4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Passengernumber4)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/86 "2013-07-15T00:14:55Z")
Ok. And he didn’t know if the human being was dangerous or not. The human being was. I was using an analogy to show how I thought Zimmerman was not thinking. You wouldn’t step into a cage with an unknown animal or an aquarium with an unknown fish. I shouldn’t have to explain what an analogy is. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/87 "2013-07-15T00:16:53Z")
Everyone understands what an analogy is. They also understand that your analogy is racist. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/88 "2013-07-15T00:38:46Z")
> [@Passengernumber4](#): > > Oh Please. I submit that you are the racist one for thinking of race when wild animal is mentioned. … No, I think it’s dehumanization whenever human being are compared to animals (ignoring the scientific accuracy of it, particularly when it’s not used in an, even vaguely, scientific way). Sadly, being a ~50 year old, American, Caucasian my racism is assumed. Sadly, being an educated, ~50 year old, American, Caucasian I fully understand why my racism is assumed. > [@Passengernumber4](#): > > … Race never crossed my mind while using that analogy, it works if Trayvon would have been white, asian, hispanic, or Vulcan. … It’s every bit as dehumanizing if Trayvon had been White, Asian, Hispanic, or Vulcan. I think this paragraph of Bobo’s addresses your analogy, > [@](#): > > … Second, it requires that the panel judging whether or not a crime has taken place include not a single member of the victims’ racial background group. It really doesn’t work without that condition. The odds that anyone in the jury room openly rejected the arguments of “reasonable racism” – i.e., that enough of these people are criminals that it is basically OK to treat them all as suspects till they prove otherwise – went from low to near absolute zero when a singularly nondiverse jury was empaneled, as was true in Simi Valley. As a result, there was almost certainly nobody there who would say during the deliberations: "No, it is not OK to view me, a law-abiding black person, as criminal. It is not OK to ask me, in my own neighborhood, if I ‘belong,’ ‘what I’m doing’ or ‘where am I going.’ " … > Lawrence D. Bobo > [@Passengernumber4](#): > > … I’ll change though. > > George Zimmerman stepped out of his car into an aquarium with a _large fish_, not knowing if it was a dolphin or a shark. That word. I do not think [del][COLOR=Black]it means what you think it means[/del][/COLOR] you know what it means. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/89 "2013-07-15T00:40:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Everyone understands what an analogy is. > > They also understand that your analogy is racist. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/90 "2013-07-15T00:42:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry, but I disagree. If Trayvon had been white, I think it’s very possible Zimmerman would have acted the same way. Many of Zimmerman’s prior 911 calls were about non-black “suspicious people.” > > I agree that if Treyvon had been Treyvona, the reaction would have been vastly different. But that is a result of society’s gender role expectations, rather than racism. +1. Zimmerman doesn’t hate black people, he hates young people. Zimmerman started following someone in the dark, in the rain, with a hoodie on way before he could have reasonably ascertained the race. > [@monstro](#): > > It’s obvious that plenty of people DO think it’s okay, **Bricker**. > > I don’t see a whole lot of pro-Zimmerman people saying he should have been convicted of manslaughter. Almost all of them seem to be of the mind that what he did was perfectly okay. This is not my imagination. These kinds of comments are rife here and elsewhere. So “People think it’s okay” is more than reasonable. Well, I’m not Bricker and wouldn’t go so far as to call myself “pro-Zimmerman” but there’s a difference in saying “I don’t think he’s guilty” and “I think what he did was OK.” I think of the people you call “pro-Zimmerman” a lot more belong to the former than the latter. > [@AngelSoft](#): > > I was listening to a right wing radio show the day before the verdict and the guy actually said ‘This isn’t about race because Zimmerman has several close, black friends’. What’s said, besides the cliche of it, is that I’m sure a lot of people think that as well. Personally, I do think race was involved but not to a severe degree. TM was black and that added to his suspiciousness in MZ’s mind. But you know what? Racism involved or not, MZ should not have gotten a not guilty. That he was able to stalk and harass this kid, ignore the direct orders of the 911 operator, confront a random stranger and end up killing him…and to get off of all legal charges? That’s just insane. I don’t care if TM struck out at him. MZ brought it on by his own actions. Should MZ have just laid down and taken a beating (if that’s even what happened)? No. But I don’t think in this situation that he should be able to get off scott-free from killing another person. Add on top of that the poor woman getting 20 years for NOT killing someone, makes me wonder wtf is wrong with this country. This would be a key point in the difference between “I think he’s guilty” and “I approve of what GZ did.” The law, as it is, makes it reasonable that he would have been found not guilty. Between the self defense angle, the cc permit, the evidence presented, and no preconceived notions of racial motivation or other irrationalities I thought that Zimmerman had a good shot of beating the charges. What gets people’s goat would be the existence of these self defense laws, gun control issues, etc. It just doesn’t jibe with their (and my) preconceived notions of justice and morality. I don’t think the people who are rioting are directing their frustration properly. They shouldn’t be outraged at the verdict, or outraged at the state of racial affairs in America. They should be outraged at the state of the laws in America that would allow a situation like this to arise in the first place - specifically the gun situation ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/91 "2013-07-15T00:46:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, George Zimmerman stepped out of his car in the presence of a _human being_. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp. It shouldn’t be, but for some, it is. America has made some progress, but the sad reality is, the lives of black people are often not held on the same value as whites, and their lives are not afforded the same regard under the law. I am not the same as I was before yesterday evening when I heard the news. I knew it was a distant hope that justice would apply to tm, but still, I had hoped. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/92 "2013-07-15T00:52:00Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Well, I’m not Bricker and wouldn’t go so far as to call myself “pro-Zimmerman” but there’s a difference in saying “I don’t think he’s guilty” and “I think what he did was OK.” I think of the people you call “pro-Zimmerman” a lot more belong to the former than the latter. You are correct, and there is a maddening inability from many here to understand that difference. Perhaps even more irritating is the idea that a reasoned conclusion that Zimmerman can’t be proven guilty means believing Zimmerman’s story to be perfectly accurate, and believing _only_ that, as though Zimmerman’s story were the subject of the trial, rather than the state’s (failed, as it turns out) attempt to prove him guilty of the elements of the crime he was charged with. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/93 "2013-07-15T00:57:12Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > It shouldn’t be, but for some, it is. America has made some progress, but the sad reality is, the lives of black people are often not held on the same value as whites, and their lives are not afforded the same regard under the law. I am not the same as I was before yesterday evening when I heard the news. I knew it was a distant hope that justice would apply to tm, but still, I had hoped. Martin’s alleged murderer was charged and tried by the state. It was, by any rational measure, a fair and thorough trial in which the state did their best to persuade the jury of the alleged murderer’s guilt. That is what it means for justice to apply to someone. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/94 "2013-07-15T01:10:36Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Lest anyone think Lawrence D. Bobo isn’t, sadly, correct. > > CMC fnord! No, Mr. Bobo is wildly wrong. A not guilty verdict in this case did not require the jury to be “immers[ed] in a culture of contempt, derision and at bottom, profound dehumanization of African Americans, particularly black men”. It requires a jury that has a reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the accused. Which was available in spades, due the lack of evidence that indicated guilt without first being processed through the assumption of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/95 "2013-07-15T01:28:56Z")
> [@Passengernumber4](#): > > It was Non-Emergency operator or dispatcher. His name is Sean Noffke and he testified during the trial. I’ll quote him. > > “We are directly liable if we give a direct order” He then said he would never “tell a person to follow or not to follow”. I quoted the article. They said 911 dispatcher. There is tape of their conversation where he clearly says we don’t need you to do that [follow him]. These semantic quibbling you are hung up on are meaningless. I never contended this operator’s instructions/suggestions/whatever are legally binding. Just that a disinterested person given similar facts at the time thought it was likely a bad idea for Zimmerman to pursue someone at night. > [@Passengernumber4](#): > > George Zimmerman have every right to follow Trayvon Martin that night. It was not against the law in this case. No one has alleged that was against the law. What I am saying is that it was stupid and likely motivated by racial profiling. > [@Passengernumber4](#): > > It wasn’t stalking or anything even close to that. Learn how to read. I explicitely said that such laws do not apply in this case. My point was that you contention that you can follow someone anytime any where is not true. > [@Passengernumber4](#): > > I don’t see how just following someone “will lead to tragic consequences a large percentage of the time.” I left out having a concealed weapon because, like me, he probably has it on him nearly 24/7. It really does not even matter that he had it until after being beat for 40 seconds when he finally used it. There is a reason people who feel threatened have a fight or flight reaction. If you follow someone at night at night with a gun, with the sole intent to confront this person you think is a criminal, there is a fairly high chance something bad is gonna happen. > [@Passengernumber4](#): > > It’s mind-boggling to me that people think that following someone gives open ground to be attacked. I don’t think he was attacked. At least, I highly doubt he didn’t start the fight, and/or fight back. I don’t think picking a fight you end up losing should be grounds to shoot someone. > [@Bricker](#): > > What racial comments did George make? How about before you start making ridiculous assumptions about what I was referring to, you give me a chance to answer. The comments I am talking about can be found [here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/18/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-evidence_n_1528268.html): > [@](#): > > According to the witness, Zimmerman singled him out because he was Middle Eastern, calling him a “fucking moron” and mocking him with the voice of “Achmed the terrorist.” He said Zimmerman would also tell stories and make jokes about “bombing” and other “Middle Eastern stuff.” Other evidence of his possible feelings on race are [here](http://www.businessinsider.com/george-zimmerman-racist-comments-2012-7): > [@](#): > > The statements, made by a woman referred to only as Witness 9, paint the picture of a man raised in a racist family who disliked minorities unless they fit a certain mold. > > “Because growing up, they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people,” Witness 9 told investigators Jim Post and Jim Rick during a March interview. > > “They talk a lot of, a lot of bad things about black people,” she added. Those are the types of things I was talking about. Not what you alleged in latter posts. > [@Bricker](#): > > And by what possible rationale do you impute anyone else’s comments to George? You generally should not do that unless there is some evidence that they share the same feelings. There is evidence that is the case, and given that both the brother and father were acting as unofficial spokespeople for him, the fact they couldn’t do so without outing themselves as unabashed racists is fairly incriminating. Either way, feel free to throw out their behavior. There is plenty of his own actions and comments that are questionable. > [@Passengernumber4](#): > > George’s racial comments? Are you talking about where he said “he looks black” When the Non-Emergency operator asked is the suspect was white, black, or hispanic? Is that a racial comment to you? No. See above. And try to not make unfounded assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/96 "2013-07-15T01:34:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If the meaning of a “not guilty” verdict has flown over **brickbacon’s** head, he sure has a lot of company. How exactly has the verdict flown over my head? ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/97 "2013-07-15T01:38:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, Mr. Bobo is wildly wrong. A not guilty verdict in this case did not require the jury to be “immers[ed] in a culture of contempt, derision and at bottom, profound dehumanization of African Americans, particularly black men”. It requires a jury that has a reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the accused. Which was available in spades, due the lack of evidence that indicated guilt without first being processed through the assumption of guilt. Like I said in another thread, things do not happen in a vacuum. [History is interred in the shallowest of graves](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/07/george-zimmerman-not-guilty-blood-on-the-leaves.html). And while the state may not have proved their case in this specific instance, there is a long history in the south of all white juries denying justice to black people. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/98 "2013-07-15T01:51:52Z")
Since it’s obvious from the dispatcher call that Trayvon had a four minute head start ,after the dispatcher suggested that Zimmerman not follow, Zimmerman’s breathing was normal, no wind noise, just a regular conversation, (Omara’s four minute silence at the trial) Trayvon certainly couldn’t have known that Zimmerman had a gun, since there would have been no confrontation. Logically, Trayvon would have been long gone. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/99 "2013-07-15T02:01:45Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > Like I said in another thread, things do not happen in a vacuum. [History is interred in the shallowest of graves](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/07/george-zimmerman-not-guilty-blood-on-the-leaves.html). That article is a little more even-handed, but only just. > [@](#): > > We can understand the verdict to mean validation for the idea that the actions Zimmerman took that night were those of a reasonable man, that the conclusions he drew were sound, and that a black teen-ager can be considered armed any time he is walking down a paved street. No, we can’t understand the verdict to mean that. This appears to be yet another commentator who fails to understand the difference between someone being proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and wholesale endorsement of every aspect of their conduct. The jury didn’t find that Zimmerman acted out of reasonable fear, but rather that the state couldn’t prove that he didn’t (assuming that was the basis for their verdict, we can’t be certain, of course). Likewise, there was no validation of Zimmerman’s suspicion of Martin, because he wasn’t on trial for being suspicious of Martin. As for black teenagers being considered armed…that’s a grotesque mischaracterization of the defense’s argument. I understand that this what writers do: they try to frame the events of a chaotic and uncertain universe as simple, appealing narratives, which creates the comforting illusion of some grand meaning behind the events. But this should be done responsibly. > [@NonaSequitur](#): > > And while the state may not have proved their case in this specific instance, there is a long history in the south of all white juries denying justice to black people. Which does not mean that every acquittal of the killer of a black person is the denial of justice. This case, for example, was not. Also, this jury was not all white. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487/100 "2013-07-15T02:32:01Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > Proof? > > Oh wait… Like yours and Zimmerman’s? Oh wait. Next. > [@hmarvin](#): > > People tend to forget, or refuse to believe, George Zimmerman has black ancestry. So? You can be a bigot and hate the race you are an ancestor from. Or did you seriously not know that? > [@Passengernumber4](#): > > Ok. And he didn’t know if the human being was dangerous or not. The human being was. > > I was using an analogy to show how I thought Zimmerman was not thinking. You wouldn’t step into a cage with an unknown animal or an aquarium with an unknown fish. I shouldn’t have to explain what an analogy is. Yes, someone was obviously dangerous. That someone was Zimmerman. You know, the killer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zimmerman-martin-how-did-this-get-to-be-about-race/663487.md?page=6)