# Zion, could you please elaborate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2000, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124 "2000-04-23T21:04:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/41 "2000-04-26T21:48:00Z")
SingleDad wrote: > [@](#): > > ## quote > > ## I think Zion raises a valid point her, to wit: Real life sucks! šŸ˜ƒšŸ˜ƒ > > And thatā€™s a _scientifically provable_ proposition! šŸ˜ƒ ā€œA Compilation of Overpressure and Underpressure Measurements at Strategic Sampling Points in the Real World, and Their Implications as to Whether Real Life Sucks or Blowsā€. Iā€™m sure this study will appear in _Nature_ any time now. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![DaphyDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@DaphyDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphyDuck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/42 "2000-04-27T10:58:00Z")
Andyroo010 - are you an Adam and Eve believer or a ā€˜the bibleā€™s full of metaphorsā€™ believer? I only ask because Iā€™m sure that the Bible says that God created man in his own image - and if youā€™re not an ā€œAdam and Eveā€-er then God must be bisexual. QED. * * * ā€œincognuityā€ should be a word! ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/43 "2000-04-27T11:32:00Z")
Iā€™d like some Christian opinion (backed up by the Bible, not by your own belief, if you donā€™t mind.) I understand that whereas Jews are bound by the Mosaic laws (all 600-odd), they consider non-Jews only to be bound by the 7 Noahite laws. I always figured that not being a Christian, the Bible doesnā€™t apply to me in the same way that not being a Frenchman, the laws of France donā€™t apply to me. Is there a biblical position on this? ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/44 "2000-04-27T15:22:00Z")
**tracer:** You owe me for a new keyboard! Your comment caused coffee to shoot out my nose! šŸ˜ƒ Can I steal that for my new sig? ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/45 "2000-04-27T15:49:00Z")
**Esprix:** > [@](#): > > When a Christian attempts to point out to me that I (or, for that matter, anyone) has sinned/is sinning, they truly believe that they are doing it for _our better welfare_. a) I donā€™t buy that and b) my welfare is none of their business. Last I checked I was an _adult_ and perfectly competent to see to my own welfare. If I feel the need for someoneā€™s advice, I will _ask_ for it. If _I choose_ to look for meaning and purpose, and I ask a Christian to help me find it, he then has free rein to impress his moral values on me. But until I ask, him tellling me that he knows what my own welfare better than I do is presumptous, arrogant, obnoxious and **self-righteous**. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/46 "2000-04-27T16:03:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **SingleDad** : > > a) I donā€™t buy that and b) my welfare is none of their business. Last I checked I was an _adult_ and perfectly competent to see to my own welfare. Well, I certainly donā€™t buy it, either, but in their eyes, because you have not accepted Christ, you really _arenā€™t_ capable of maintaining your own welfare, and itā€™s up to them to point this out to you, as one begins to teach a child about the world, something about which he has not clue one. Sure, I donā€™t like being looked at like a child, but I understand where theyā€™re coming from, as misguided as I think it is. > [@](#): > > If I feel the need for someoneā€™s advice, I will _ask_ for it. If _I choose_ to look for meaning and purpose, and I ask a Christian to help me find it, he then has free rein to impress his moral values on me. But until I ask, him tellling me that he knows what my own welfare better than I do is presumptous, arrogant, obnoxious and **self-righteous**. Yes, please, ask them - theyā€™d be more than willing to help you out! šŸ˜ƒ Again, I donā€™t disagree with you, but they sure donā€™t look at it that way. I have a Chick Tract if youā€™d like to do some further readingā€¦ šŸ˜ƒ Esprix * * * Evidently, I rock. [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/47 "2000-04-27T16:15:00Z")
Esprix: If it is okay for a Christian to witness to somebody because they honestly care for their well-being, then is it similarly okay for me, as a self defense expert, to ā€œwitnessā€ to people about the realities of self defense because I know the terrible fate that will befall them in a violent encounter? Is it alright for me to do this even though they havenā€™t asked for any self defense advice? Of course not. If somebody asks me about violent crime and self defense I am always willing to help out ā€¦ but I donā€™t try to cram it down peopleā€™s throat. The reality is that Christians have been commanded to do something from a source that they take purely on faith and hence is a subjective source. To further complicate things Christians preach their interpretation of the source, which adds another layer of subjectivity to boot. N.B. that failure to follow the command itself isnā€™t even a sin in any event, so there is no cause to follow this command on the basis of self-preservation. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/48 "2000-04-27T19:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by SingleDad: > \*\* > > But until I ask, him tellling me that he knows what my own welfare better than I do is presumptous, arrogant, obnoxious and _self-righteous._\*\* From the outside viewpoint, I agree completely. It is presumptious at best to assume moral superiority and then try to force feed your corrections to those who ā€œerr.ā€ If, however, I put myself into the shoes of the fanatic Christian, it doesnā€™t look so bad. (Please understand I am **not** a theist. This is for illustration only!) If I know (and the fanatics donā€™t believe, they _know_) that Jesus is the only way to save oneā€™s immortal soul, and I also know that the master of the universe wants me to save all the souls I can, why should I let your discomfort dissuade me? I certainly wouldnā€™t care if you yelled at me or hated me for pulling someone from the path of a speeding truck, and thatā€™s just their _mortal_ life! Why should I care if I ruffle feathers in attempting to save someoneā€™s _eternal_ life? By golly Iā€™m only out to save you from Satan! Of course, thatā€™s the sort of thinking that gives us abortion doctor murders and bombs on planes, but it _is_ valid in the fanaticā€™s universe, assuming that the person is a true believer and not someone in the religion biz for profit, power, or personal aggrandizement. Personally, I love it when someone tries to Christianize me, because they usually donā€™t really know much about their faith, and arenā€™t ready for anyone to throw the enormous holes in their convictions back at them, and watching them squirm and swallow paradoxes in defense of their beliefs is fun, even if they always do back into the same corners. All of this is not directed at the average, well adjusted theists in the crowd, who may mention their beliefs but donā€™t try wearing you down by metaphorically beating you over the head with the Bible. * * * Cogito ergo sumā€¦I think. ---
**Author:** ![Ophelia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c67d28/32.png) [@Ophelia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ophelia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2000, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/49 "2000-04-27T22:38:00Z")
I just want to say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. It has remained, for the most part, straightforward & honest withut falling into left field. I have my own observations and thoughts that take so many views expressed here and twirls them all together. Instead of trying to express or sum those up, I just wanted to send out a positive vibe to the posters here. Just so you all know at least one observer is getting some good information & perspectives from here, as well as helping her continually re-examine her own ideas on the subject of Christianity & Homosexuality. Thanks! šŸ™‚ * * * ## ā€œI can never give a ā€˜yesā€™ of a ā€˜no.ā€™ I donā€™t believe everything in life can be settled by a monosyllableā€ _Betty Smith_ ENFP Prayer: Dear God, please help me keep my mind on one - oh look a bird! - thing at a time ---
**Author:** ![Divine\_Videographer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba9def/32.png) [@Divine\_Videographer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Divine_Videographer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2000, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/50 "2000-04-28T03:40:00Z")
Iā€™ve been a reverend only a short time, and though I am familiar with the Bible as a whole, my philosophical studies are still progressing. As far as I have been able to tell, the Bible is a text held as a Divine Order, by a buncy of extremely fallible creatures. The one thing Iā€™ve always stressed to my congregation is flexibility. There are certain things in the Bible that donā€™t apply to the modern world, simply b/c there are certain issues that no longer apply, such as marrying into the tribes of Israel. I, for one, do not consider homosexuality deviant or sin. Iā€™m sure Saul of Tarsus did, and maybe Jesus did to, but that was another time, and another nation. At the time, given the limited number of Christians, proceation was a good way to add numbers to the flock. Homosexuality bears no heirs, and therefore, doesnā€™t further the cause of Christ, according to Paul anyway. Similarly, pork wasnā€™t a good meat to eat, since the animal was often diseased and was a common source of deathly illness. So, the Bible says, ā€œdonā€™t eat pork, it is a filthy animal, and you will die b/c God wills it.ā€ The New Testament was written by men, and it is bound to contain the various views of the men who wrote it. Free will, our God given gift, allows us to choose whether or not to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b5e925/32.png) [@Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zion)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2000, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/51 "2000-04-28T05:19:00Z")
Ok, Iā€™ll try and answer the OP. SingleDad: I want to use some Scripture first, and that might give you an idea of why I said the things I said about atheists being fools, and about you not truly knowing happiness. _Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, ā€œThere is no God.ā€_ _Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge._ _Prov. 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He make your paths straight_ _Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ._ Paul, speaking to the Christians in Rome: _Romans 35-39 - Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?..No, in all things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present life nor the furture, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God, that is Jesus Christ our Lord._ The above passage from Romans is, IMO, one of the most powerfull passages in the Bible. And it conveys that Christians have just thatā€¦power. We are more than conqerors through Jesus. There is unmatched security in that. There is joy in that. There is freedom in that. As for Biblical reference on God making us truly happy, just read Psalms. The whole book. Most importantly though, I think Paul summed it all up best in Philippians when he said, ā€œFor me, to live, is Christ.ā€ There is no life outside of Jesus. I can say that with full confidence, because I know what life is like without God. I have seen countless lives changed by His power. And I have personal experience with it also. There was a time when God was not a part of my lifeā€¦He was but a whisper in me. Those were the worst days of my life, without a doubt. Itā€™s one thing to read these words on a computer screen, and try and believe them. But itā€™s another thing to see a person who was torn, broken, bitter, deadā€¦and see them literaly transformed into a new creation, a new person who is vibrant, andā€¦alive. Iā€™ll split this post into two parts. Iā€™ll discuss homosexuality in my next post. ---
**Author:** ![Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b5e925/32.png) [@Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zion)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2000, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/52 "2000-04-28T05:55:00Z")
SingleDad: > [@](#): > > Since you ā€œdisapproveā€ of homosexuality, what form does that disapproval take? Do you just purse your lips and sit back in the smug knowlege that heā€™s going to Hell and youā€™re not? People donā€™t go to hell because they are gay, or murderers, or liars, or because they do whateverā€¦etcā€¦etc. People go to hell because they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior. Being gay is **not** a one way ticket to hell, as many might believe. > [@](#): > > Do you think homosexuality should be criminialized? Hmmm, I think you might have to clarify. Iā€™m gonna say no though, because I canā€™t think of a reason to punish gays in that way. > [@](#): > > Do you think homosexuals should have to give up ordinary civil rights and be denied full participation in society I do not believe they should be allowed to marry, or have children. (This was discussed at length in the ā€œEthics on Homosexualityā€ thread) > [@](#): > > Iā€™m posting this in GD because I think I can demolish your ideas without any reference at all to your personal character (for which, actually, I have a degree of admiration). How can you demolish my ideas? I believe what I believe based on the Bible, and the teachings of the Holy Spirit, who lives in me. True, I have also learned from human teachers, pastors, my parentsā€¦etc. But, all of what they say must line up with the Word, and the Spirit. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2000, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/53 "2000-04-28T09:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by The Ryan: > \Originally posted by RM Mentock: > Well, sure, but once youā€™ve made the decision to approach the problem totally rationally, you essentially decided to reject Christianity before you started. In other words, your decision was based upon your religion. But I respect that.\ > > **Before starting what? What _are_ you talking about?** Before starting to approach the problem. Any problem dealing with faith is not going to be solved rationally. * * * rocks ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2000, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/54 "2000-04-29T05:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Glitch** : > > If it is okay for a Christian to witness to somebody because they honestly care for their well-being, then is it similarly okay for me, as a self defense expert, to ā€œwitnessā€ to people about the realities of self defense because I know the terrible fate that will befall them in a violent encounter? Is it alright for me to do this even though they havenā€™t asked for any self defense advice? Perhaps I didnā€™t make it clear in my previous posts, but Iā€™m not talking about witnessing, nor do I think witnessing is acceptable. I do, however, feel you have the right to state your belief to me if you see me acting in an unsafe manner. Similarly, when a Christian finds out I am gay, I fully expect and completely understand when they point out to me that I am sinning and am going to Hell. Obviously, in both cases, if I then at that point clearly state Iā€™m not interested in hearing your point of view, then it should stop there; going beyond that is witnessing. My original point was not whether Christians should witness or not, but rather that I _understand_ why they do. People get angry with them because they feel they are shoving their religion down their throats (which they are), but I understand that theyā€™re doing it because they _think_ theyā€™re saving my soul, which they see as an act of love. I donā€™t approve, but I understand. Esprix * * * Evidently, I rock. [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/55 "2000-05-01T05:26:14Z")
You are calling me a ā€œfoolā€, a **pejoritive** term. This term is factually inaccurate on an objective level (I have a demontrably high intelligence). To thus judge me, on the basis of your own arbitrary beliefs is the definition of **self-righteousness**. To call me unhappy is preposterous: Again, judging my happiness solely on the basis of your own beliefs is self-righteous. Iā€™m not totally up on Christian beliefs, but I do believe that self-righteousness is a an actual sin. To fail to recognize this sin, correct it, and thus show your true repentance cannot be a good thing, according to _your own_ ideals. Regardless, on an objective level self-righteousness is _obnoxious_ because it intrudes into my right of free thought, and it presumes you are _better_ than I am. Donā€™t argue that you donā€™t think youā€™re better than me, youā€™re just trying to help me. You have called me a fool and unhappy without objective evidence to that fact. You are claiming by implication that you are better able to judge my intelligence and psychology than I am. For the record, I have very _consciously_ and with the full power of my intellect _rejected_ the Christian God. I am guilty of the most monstrous sin possible under your religion. If you argue that _anyone_ deserves the loss of freedom or civil rights because of sin against your religion, if you have a shred of intellectual and moral honesty, you will come after me first. Youā€™ll certainly have to get through me if you want to impose your superstitious beliefs by force of law on a homosexual or any other citizen. Secondly, in my review of the homosexual threads, I didnā€™t see any reason for denying homosexuals the right to marry other than it conflicts with your superstitious beliefs. Give me one objective reason I should elevate your beliefs higher than my own. I will give you a good reason you should elevate my beliefs: Mine are based on the _reality of the evidence of my senses_, not on made up millennia-old fictions. Iā€™m being hard on your religion here only because you have asserted that it applies to objective reality. I have no basis to quarrel with your own internal beliefs, but when you attempt to use them to justify deprecation and oppression, I will most definitely consider the source. I canā€™t demolish your religion, thatā€™s part your own internal psychology. But I can demolish the _idea_ that your religion has even the smallest relevance to any objective question, and show that your attempt to do so is **self-righteous** , obnoxious, and demonstrates an attitude of completely undeserved superiority. I will defer my Christian colleagues on whether your attitude displays sinfulness and if your adherence to self-righteousness displays hypocrisy, inexusable ignorance of your own theology, or merely a lack of intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b5e925/32.png) [@Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zion)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/56 "2000-05-02T04:15:26Z")
SingleDad: > [@](#): > > Donā€™t argue that you donā€™t think youā€™re better than me, youā€™re just trying to help me. You have called me a fool and unhappy without objective evidence to that fact. I wonā€™t argue with you that Iā€™m better than you. **Iā€™ll just come flat out and say that I am not better than you. Period.** I know this from Romans. ā€œThere is none righteous, no not one.ā€ I did not call you a fool. The Scriptures call you a fool. > [@](#): > > the full power of my intellect And you call me self-righteous. > [@](#): > > Give me one objective reason I should elevate your beliefs higher than my own. I will give you a good reason you should elevate my beliefs: Mine are based on the reality of the evidence of my senses, not on made up millennia-old fictions. Statements like this just give me no reason to even continue. All I believe in is millenia-old mumbo-jumbo, right? Besides, you believed in God, and for some reason have now rejected that He even exists. How are my words going to affect you? They arenā€™t. If Polycarp sees this thread, I know he will be able to understand where Iā€™m coming from. And he can do a heck of a lot better job of explaining things than I can. ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/57 "2000-05-02T05:20:04Z")
Asserting my intelligence is merely descriptive. Asserting that Iā€™m smarter than you is comparative. I may be accurate or inaccurate, but Iā€™m not calling myself _morally superior_ to you because of my intelligence. Thus I am not exhibiting self-righteous behavior. > [@](#): > > Statements like this just give me no reason to even continue. All I believe in is millenia-old mumbo-jumbo, right? Besides, you believed in God, and for some reason have now rejected that He even exists. How are my words going to affect you? They arenā€™t. > > If Polycarp sees this thread, I know he will be able to understand where Iā€™m coming from. And he can do a heck of a lot better job of explaining things than I can. When you say, ā€œI believe in God,ā€ I say, ā€œgood for you!ā€ When you say, ā€œYou are a **fool** for not believing in my God,ā€ I say, ā€œcome out here, say it to my face and justify yourself.ā€ You canā€™t do so. Next time you self-righteously **insult my intelligence** and call me a fool, do it in the Pit where I can respond in kind. Otherwise I have to characterize your nature as trollish: You are not interested in making a point, you just want to get my dander up. I donā€™t think youā€™re a fool because you believe in God. I think you display an obnoxious, socially unacceptable, self-righteous arrogant attitude by asserting your belief is _inherently superior to mine_. I suggest you show some humility and admit that your answer is right _for you_, but that you are **incompetent** to judge someone elseā€™s answers. Unless you do so, or are willing to rationally defend your assertions, Iā€™m not interested in your point of view. Itā€™s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/58 "2000-05-02T06:40:45Z")
**Psalm 14:1** The fool(1) says in his heart, ā€œThere is no God.ā€ They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. **Proverbs 1:7** The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools(1) despise wisdom and discipline. _(1) fool in Hebrew here denotes one who is morally deficient. ā€œMorally deficientā€ can mean ā€œwithout God.ā€_ **Proverbs 10 8-14** The wise in heart accept commands, but a chattering fool comes to ruin. The man of integrity walks securely, but he who takes crooked paths will be found out. He who winks maliciously causes grief, and a chattering fool comes to ruin. The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life, but violence overwhelms the mouth of the wicked. Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs. Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment. Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin. **Proverbs 10:18** He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander is a fool. **Proverbs 10:23** A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding delights in wisdom. **Isaiah 32:6** For the fool speaks folly, his mind is busy with evil: He practices ungodliness and spreads error concerning the LORD; the hungry he leaves empty and from the thirsty he withholds water. **2 Cor 11:17** In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. **Matthew 5:22** But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ā€˜Raca,ā€™ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ā€˜You fool!ā€™ will be in danger of the fire of hell. **Matthew 7:5** You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brotherā€™s eye. ---
**Author:** ![Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b5e925/32.png) [@Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zion)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/59 "2000-05-02T14:29:47Z")
You are an intelligent man, SingleDad. I know that your IQ is most likely much higher than mine, and you obviously are much more learned than I am. Iā€™m not saying this to kiss up to you now. Iā€™m saying this, because itā€™s simply true. I think we can look at the Scriptures, and agree that what they are saying is, ā€œIt is foolish not to believe in God.ā€ I am not twisting the Scripture here, right? Also, it is safe to say that after reading Proverbs, we can say that true wisdom, only comes from God. Now, these things are written in the Word, SingleDad. Whether you or I attest to them or not, does not change the validity of the Scripture, the truth of the Word. Right now, one of us believes Godā€™s Word to be true. It does not make one of us one better than the other. I am truly sorry for coming across as judgemental, and self-righteous. Please accept my apology. Allow me to quote you another passage, so maybe you can futher understand where Iā€™m coming from. _This is what the Lord says: ā€œLet not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands me and knows me, that I am the Lord, who excersises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,ā€ declares the Lord. Jeremiah 9:23-24_ No one has room to boast about earthly things. We can only boast in God, and His Son Jesus Christ, and the wisdom, power, and strength that He gives us. Paul quotes that passage twice in I Corinthians. He also knew that nothing else mattered but Jesus. Adam ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124/60 "2000-05-03T20:29:45Z")
> [@](#): > > I think we can look at the Scriptures, and agree that what they are saying is, ā€œIt is foolish not to believe in God.ā€ I am not twisting the Scripture here, right? Also, it is safe to say that after reading Proverbs, we can say that true wisdom, only comes from God. > > Now, these things are written in the Word, SingleDad. Whether you or I attest to them or not, does not change the validity of the Scripture, **the truth of the Word**. Right now, one of us believes Godā€™s Word to be true. It does not make one of us one better than the other. (My emphasis.) I have no reason to think that youā€™re being intentionally self-righteous, but I have to agree with **SingleDad** here. The Bible is the truth _for you_; it is not the truth for him. The very fact that you refer to the Bible as ā€œthe truthā€ implies that simply because you believe in its validity and he doesnā€™t, you are privy to ā€œthe truth,ā€ and he is somehow less for not having realized that yet. I know you donā€™t believe any one person to be better than another, but ā€œtruthā€ is a powerful word. _You_ may believe the Bible and Christianity are the truth _for you_, but without that caveat, you sound like youā€™re a father correcting an errant child, and the tone cannot be anything _but_ self-righteous and holier-than-thou. Personally, I just nod and smile a lot. šŸ™‚ Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zion-could-you-please-elaborate/18124.md?page=4)