# Zionism, Antizionism, antisemitism, etc **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2026, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557 "2026-11-06T16:29:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/22 "2026-11-06T17:29:34Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The settlers are problematic because many of them are violent, racist terrorists, not because they are Jews living in the “wrong” place. If they want to remain where they are and become loyal citizens of the State of Palestine, I absolutely think Palestine should allow them to do so. I don’t think _Israel_ should allow them to do so, because in the guaranteed event that they suffer from sectarian violence under Palestinian rule (whether they bring it on themselves through their own behavior or not), it will drag Israel into a war. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/23 "2026-11-06T17:30:01Z")
Obviously. If you throw a sart at a map and hit a country, you’re probably not a pro-nationalist or an anti-nationalist for that country. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/24 "2026-11-06T17:31:12Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Is it possible, in good faith, to be neither a Zionist nor an anti-Zionist? Yes, I think many of the people defending anti-Zionism are just clueless non-Zionists. Nothing wrong with being a non-Zionist. It’s not the same as an _anti_ Zionist at all. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/25 "2026-11-06T17:31:45Z")
1 and 2 are fair points. WRT 3, did the resolution specifically _say_ that the situation could change in the future, or did it just not specifically say it couldn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/26 "2026-11-06T17:32:27Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Here, “harbor” is doing a lot of heavy lifting. The statement implies all Palestinians are in on the conspiracy to hide known baddies. Well, Palestine is recognized as a sovereign country by most nations in the world. Even the UN recognizes it as a “non-member observer state”, the key word being “state”. Only a U.S. veto has prevented Palestine from being a fully vested member. So, and I apologize, let me rephrase: Palestine is harboring Hamas. It doesn’t matter that it isn’t all of them. Not all Germans were members of the Nazi party. I could go on and on, but you get my point. Palestine is responsible so, if you are Palestinean, you are just SOL because you happen live there. That’s how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/27 "2026-11-06T17:36:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s never going to happen. The fact that you _think_ it could happens just shows that unlike Israelis and Palestinians, you’re just a dilletante foreigner talking about something you know little about. Nothing personal: all of you outsiders are like that, on both sides. Of course, it _won’t_ ever happen. The settlers will return to Israel because they are racist bastards and because they would be legitimately in great danger of retaliatory violence from Palestinians. All I’m saying is that I don’t think the future State of Palestine should explicitly bar Jews from living there. Is this a controversial position? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/28 "2026-11-06T17:37:41Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > let me rephrase: Palestine is harboring Hamas. I think that phrasing makes a difference, and I agree with you here. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/29 "2026-11-06T17:37:45Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > 1 and 2 are fair points. WRT 3, did the resolution specifically _say_ that the situation could change in the future, or did it just not specifically say it couldn’t? It specifically said that recognizing a Palestinian state _at this time_ would reward Hamas for Oct 7 and lead to further radicalization in the region: “The Knesset of Israel firmly opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state west of Jordan. The establishment of a Palestinian state in the heart of the Land of Israel will pose an existential danger to the State of Israel and its citizens, perpetuate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and destabilize the region,” the resolution stated. “It will only be a matter of a short time until Hamas takes over the Palestinian state and turns it into a radical Islamic terror base, working in coordination with the Iranian-led axis to eliminate the State of Israel,” it continued. “ **Promoting the idea of a Palestinian state at this time** will be a reward for terrorism and will only encourage Hamas and its supporters to see this as a victory, thanks to the massacre of October 7, 2023, and a prelude to the takeover of jihadist Islam in the Middle East.” Again, I don’t think it’s a good resolution mostly because it is so self obvious to any Zionist member of the Knesset that there was no risk of what they’re saying they won’t do happening either way. With that in mind, it’s hard to think of a reason for the vote other than Arab baiting. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/30 "2026-11-06T17:43:17Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > All I’m saying is that I don’t think the future State of Palestine should explicitly bar Jews from living there. Is this a controversial position? Does it matter? The Arab world reduced its Jewish population by 99.6% over the last 80 years without a single Arab country making it explicitly illegal for Jews to live there. Palestine will undoubtedly do the same. And that’s a much better outcome than those people continuing to live there, falling victim to violence, and drawing Israel back into war with Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/31 "2026-11-06T17:44:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I think many of the people defending anti-Zionism are just clueless non-Zionists. Nothing wrong with being a non-Zionist. It’s not the same as an _anti_ Zionist at all. What if the non-Zionist has mental reservations about Zionism? How far can one go in that direction without being an anti-Zionist? Disputes about Zionism seem to be presented in a very black-white matrix, with not much nuance or spectrum between them. Also, if one discounts religious claims, as I do, what does that do to the foundations of Zionism? > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > If you throw a sart at a map and hit a country, you’re probably not a pro-nationalist or an anti-nationalist for that country. Is Zionism just Israeli nationalism? It seems to me there is more to it than that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/32 "2026-11-06T17:46:14Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What if the non-Zionist has mental reservations about Zionism? How far can one go in that direction without being an anti-Zionist? What are your “mental reservations about Zionism”? > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Also, if one discounts religious claims, as I do, what does that do to the foundations of Zionism? Absolutely nothing, since Zionism was founded by secular Jews. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Is Zionism just Israeli nationalism? It’s the belief that the Jewish people should have self determination in their own country (as opposed to Bundists who wanted Jewish autonomy in Europe and traditionalists who wanted to stay in ghettos separated from society, like Sarmar today). ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/33 "2026-11-06T17:48:58Z")
Sure, I don’t identify as either. I can’t be a Zionist because I think ethno-nationalism is generally stupid and prefer secular, multiethnic democracy. That might make me theoretically an anti-Zionist, but IRL that implies that you not only have philosophical qualms about Israel’s existence, but actively want to make it not exist. I don’t hold that position because I think that realistically, for the foreseeable future Israel needs to exist in order to ensure the safety of its Jewish residents. What stops me from identifying as Zionist is that I regard the existence of a Jewish State as a necessary response to specific historical conditions, not as an intrinsically desirable goal in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/34 "2026-11-06T17:49:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What are your “mental reservations about Zionism”? My mental processes are none of your business, and I have no intention of indulging you with them. if you don’t want to answer my question, that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/35 "2026-11-06T17:50:28Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > My mental processes are none of your business, and I have no intention of indulging you with them. Alright lil bro. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > if you don’t want to answer my question, that’s fine. If you don’t want to give me the context necessary to answer that question, I won’t. Have a great day. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/36 "2026-11-06T17:51:33Z")
Thank you for a nuanced reply that I can also understand. That helps me reconcile some internal issues I have. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/37 "2026-11-06T17:53:03Z")
Can we get a definition of terms as they’re being used in this thread? My understanding of Zionist described Jews who wanted to go to what was Palestine and create a Jewish state. I don’t think I know what the modern meaning is. Depending on that meaning, maybe anti-Zionist will be clear, but just in case, maybe define that, too. Historically, I thought some Jews were anti-Zionist, meaning they didn’t want a Jewish state formed and didn’t want to move there. My definitions are clearly way out of date, but I find everyone of these conversations confusing. Can non-Jews be Zionist? I wouldn’t have thought so. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/38 "2026-11-06T18:01:40Z")
I get what you’re saying but if you opt for a policy where you do no ethnic cleansing directly but you’re fairly certain that someone else will do the ethnic cleansing for you, you don’t really get to fully wash your hands of it. The two state solution has a genuine problem that the settlements make it really hard to create any kind of viable state on the west bank, many of them have been around for a ling time and people have grown up there, and it’s nearly impossible to imagine them integrating into a Palestinian state. Partly for this reason I don’t have any problem with someone supporting a democratic one-state solution. If someone insists that the sate can’t be a successor state of the current state if Israel or can’t have the name Israel that sets off some red flags for me. As an American I’m more inclined to think there is no obvious solution and we don’t need our special role as supporters of Israel or brokers of a peaceful resolution. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/39 "2026-11-06T18:01:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Does it matter? The Arab world reduced its Jewish population by 99.6% over the last 80 years without a single Arab country making it explicitly illegal for Jews to live there. Palestine will undoubtedly do the same I mean, call me a crazy optimist, but I would like to hope that the hypothetical Palestinian State will be at least some improvement over the sort of regimes that were running the Arab world when the Jews were expelled in the 50s. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/40 "2026-11-06T18:06:01Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Is Zionism just Israeli nationalism? It seems to me there is more to it than that. In every nationalist ideology there’s more to it. There’s history and national myth, reasons for believing national self-determination is necessary, belief about what the nation needs to achieve self-determination (and whether they have self determination and need to defend it or are still trying to achieve it), and internal debates about all of those things. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/41 "2026-11-06T18:07:19Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > The two state solution has a genuine problem that the settlements make it really hard to create any kind of viable state on the west bank, many of them have been around for a ling time and people have grown up there, and it’s nearly impossible to imagine them integrating into a Palestinian state. > > Partly for this reason I don’t have any problem with someone supporting a democratic one-state solution. Yes, I agree. It’s really hard for me to imagine these people living together under a single elected government in the foreseeable future. But Israeli policies in the last couple decades have made dividing the area into two states very problematic logistically, to the point that it is no longer completely obvious to me that the one state solution is the less realistic one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557.md?page=3)