# Zionism, Antizionism, antisemitism, etc **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2026, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557 "2026-11-06T16:29:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/42 "2026-11-06T18:10:18Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > I get what you’re saying but if you opt for a policy where you do no ethnic cleansing directly but you’re fairly certain that someone else will do the ethnic cleansing for you, you don’t really get to fully wash your hands of it. > > The two state solution has a genuine problem that the settlements make it really hard to create any kind of viable state on the west bank, many of them have been around for a ling time and people have grown up there, and it’s nearly impossible to imagine them integrating into a Palestinian state. Moving the settlers out of the settlements deep in the west bank might meet the definition of ethnic cleansing but I don’t have a moral problem with it. It was done previously in Gaza when Israel withdrew, there were lots of sad photos of Orthodox dudes trying to block IDF bulldozers from demolishing their house, so sad too bad, it needed to happen. If and when the Palestinians agree to a two state solution, it can happen in the West Bank too. If some of the settlers want to stay with the understanding that when the Palestinians persecute them they’re on their own I guess that’s fine, but I just don’t buy that it will happen. Any Jewish presence in Palestine will lead to persecution and then war between Israel and Palestine. Forcibly relocating some settlers is a small price to pay to avoid that. This is a thing that has happened after every war in history. Borders get redrawn and people get moved around. The sooner it happens and is over and done with, the sooner everyone can start building new lives wherever they end up. And I feel especially not bad about the settlers because they moved there knowing that one day Palestine might come back to the negotiating table and they will be evicted. They saw it happen in Gaza. Some of them (not many, but still) ARE settlers from Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/43 "2026-11-06T18:11:50Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I mean, call me a crazy optimist, but I would like to hope that the hypothetical Palestinian State will be at least some improvement over the sort of regimes that were running the Arab world when the Jews were expelled in the 50s. Why? What about Hamas or the PA leads you to believe that this would be the case? Genuine question here, I’d love to understand your thought process on this. And it’s not just the 50s; how many Jews have gone back to the Arab world? How are the 4000 or so Jews still living in modern Arab countries doing today? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/44 "2026-11-06T18:14:22Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > > > Here, “harbor” is doing a lot of heavy lifting. The statement implies all Palestinians are in on the conspiracy to hide known baddies. > > Well, Palestine is recognized as a sovereign country by most nations in the world. Even the UN recognizes it as a “non-member observer state”, the key word being “state”. Only a U.S. veto has prevented Palestine from being a fully vested member. So, and I apologize, let me rephrase: Palestine is harboring Hamas. It doesn’t matter that it isn’t all of them. Not all Germans were members of the Nazi party. I could go on and on, but you get my point. Palestine is responsible so, if you are Palestinean, you are just SOL because you happen live there. That’s how it works. That doesn’t change anything. You shouldn’t be SOL because you live there. “Palestine” in this construction refers to the government, not to civilians. There’s no rule that says it’s okay to kill civilians if you’re at war with a country. That’s been the whole problem. If Israel only went after Hamas and wasn’t doing things like preventing civilians from having food and water, bombing civilians and doing so many horrible things, no one would think they were committing genocide. It’s specifically that noncombatants–hell, even medics, who are protected by law–are targeted. Luck is not what is killing Palestinians. It is Israel, as in the Israeli government and entirely legal armed forces of said country. Calling them SOL absolves Israel of blame. It DOES matter if it is all of them, as only the ones actually doing the bad thing are acceptable targets. The rest isn’t luck. It’s war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/45 "2026-11-06T18:17:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I can’t tell what your point is. You don’t appear to address what I posted. Is your point as simple as “some antizionists are antisemitic”? If so, I agree with that. This is exactly what I mean when I say that snark isn’t a substitute for argument. Sure, it sounds all hateful like you scored a point against your opposition. But, once you find the underlying argument, there’s nothing there. I always find the use of snark in an argument to be suspicious, like you didn’t think your argument could hold its own. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/46 "2026-11-06T18:40:44Z")
Someone expressed doubt that anyone ever claimed, full stop, that anti-zionism is antisemitism. I was able to find someone making that claim: > **[Understanding Antisemitism and Anti-Zionism](https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/understanding-antisemitism-and-anti-zionism)** > > Definitions of antisemitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Israel bias. > [@](#): > > Anti-Zionism is antisemitic ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/47 "2026-11-06T18:45:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I was able to find someone making that claim: Of course anti-Zionism is anti-semitic. It is the denial of the self determination movement of the Jewish people. You can’t deny a people autonomy without being prejudiced against them. And the article clearly distinguishes between anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel: > [@](#): > > Anti-Zionism is distinct from criticism of the policies or actions of the government of Israel in that it attacks the foundational legitimacy of Jewish self-determination and statehood. Some people may mistakenly use the term anti-Zionism to describe those who oppose specific policies of the Israeli government, but who still uphold and support Israel’s right to exist. > > Is criticism of Israeli policies antisemitic? > In most cases, it is perfectly acceptable to criticize the policies and actions of the Israeli government, just as one can criticize the actions of the US or any other government. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/48 "2026-11-06T18:47:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If Israel only went after Hamas I’m not entirely sure that’s a thing they could do, even if they thought it was critical. That’s not to excuse their choices, it feels an awful lot to me like they’re now just beating down a helpless population who made some of their own very stupid choices based on hatred of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/49 "2026-11-06T19:27:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You shouldn’t be SOL because you live there. No, but that is the way war has always been and, I’m convinced, will always be. In the old days before mechanized warfare, invading armies got their food from the civilian population they decimated. The conquerors ate well while the civilians starved. In WW2, we ended the war in the Pacific Theatre by incinerating two cities comprised of civilians, many of whom were women and children. You’re basically saying that the Israeli forces should have accepted harder fighting and more casualties because it would be the decent thing to do to avoid civilian casualties. Yeah, right! Al Davis got it right when he said, “Just win, baby!” ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/50 "2026-11-06T19:31:16Z")
I don’t want to junior mod, but I think the intentions of this thread were to discuss the concepts listed in the title on a more abstract, philosophical level. There are lots of threads to discuss the specifics of what Israel is currently doing in Gaza. I’d like to see this one not get bogged down in that. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/51 "2026-11-06T19:46:15Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Is criticism of Israeli policies antisemitic? > In most cases, it is perfectly acceptable to criticize the policies and actions of the Israeli government, just as one can criticize the actions of the US or any other government. I think this is the part people don’t always live up to. In my neighborhood someone put up a flyer saying “Stop killing children in Gaza” and it was defaced. Was the person who defaced it actually enthusiastic about killing children in Gaza? Much more likely they were someone who felt the flyer was “antisemitic” and he was sticking up for the Jews by scribbling over it. Likewise, right after 10/7 there was that trend of “Missing Person” flyers about the hostages in my neighborhood, and after a while someone started writing “Free Palestine” on them. Maybe that person was a literal Hamas supporter who thinks murdering Jews is awesome, but more likely it was someone enraged about the killing of civilians in Gaza who viewed sympathy for Israelis as an attempt to distract from the crimes Israel was committing. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/52 "2026-11-06T21:18:16Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > There are good and decent people on both sides as they say. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Insisting that everyone adopt our preferred language before we are willing to talk to them will get us nowhere > [@Babale](#): > > Language has meaning Language has meaning **s**. There is a word that has _had_ a meaning, pretty universally understood for decades, by the PLO, by Hamas after, by most Jews across the world, “Zionism” - which throughout that time has meant that a culturally Jewish Israel should be allowed to exist. And to be against that, to be “antizionist” has meant, to all those same groups, endorsing the goal of many Arab nations who attacked it many times, of the PLO, etc. of destroying that country and eliminating the Jewish presence there. In general for most of that time the nature of those who endorsed Zionism was explicitly not religious. The big shift to religious Zionism was in Christian circles, and recently some minority Jewish religious Zionism parties. Among American Jews today there is a fair degree of consensus (not universal agreement) that Israeli actions recently are horribly egregious. _And_ that Israel actually is under serious threats of harm from regional actors who are antizionist in the long established meaning of the word, wanting to eliminate Jews from the region, nothing less will ever satisfy some of these elements. Stated goals. Part of the charter. Antisemites have a long history of using the word “Zionist” synonymously with “Jewish.” When they speak of a “Zionist agenda” and “Zionist control” they mean Jewish and when they say they are against Zionists, antizionist, they mean Jews as a group, not the actions of the Religious Zionist Party or even Likud. Jews. They for _decades_ have been occasionally wrapping their Jew hate as a hyperfocus on Israel: the rhetoric of that sort was recently on display in these fora. Some American progressives have heard that word used by these antisemites and adopted it to mean a variety of things - from being critical of very specific abuses by the Israeli state and its citizens, to being specifically against the idea of a Jewish nation state, and many more meanings. My position is pretty straightforward: the phrase antizionism has a long understood meaning of eliminating Israel of Jews and a long term usage by Jew haters; as a center left to progressive individual I want as many as possible in the common ground that current Israeli actions are unacceptable and that the United States must use its power to constrain it. Israel will not and should not be asked to do things that put its existence at risk. Israel will defend itself and any demand that it not do so would not go far no matter what pressure. But current actions are disproportionate to defense needs. I completely get that “antizionism” doesn’t mean the same thing to some progressives now as it does to me. And that it does mean the same thing as it means to me to other progressives. And to other non progressive antisemites. Given that the word has meaning **s** , established and very recent, very antisemitic and not, and when it is used it invites understanding it as meaning something other than intended by some, those who want to find that common ground may _consider_ finding ways to express how they want to be understood that are not going to understood as hate speech by some, who are using the longer term meaning of the word. Intentionally using a word that invites being understood as hate speech is probably not a good idea unless the intention is to offend and provoke. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/53 "2026-11-06T21:36:33Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > There is a word that has _had_ a meaning, pretty universally understood for decades, by the PLO, by Hamas after, by most Jews across the world, “Zionism” - which throughout that time has meant that a culturally Jewish Israel should be allowed to exist. I don’t think that’s all it’s meant for Palestinians, for years and decades. In my understanding, to most Palestinians, Zionism means (and has meant) that it’s _good and necessary_ they and their ancestors were displaced, and _good and necessary_ that they continue to be displaced, _good and necessary_ that they are treated differently under the law (especially in the Palestinian territories), and sometimes even worse. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/54 "2026-11-06T22:26:53Z")
And I honestly do not think that Palestinians ever used the word to mean those things. But I do endorse that in a group of Americans that include Palestinians using the word “Zionism” to communicate a precondition of accepting that Israel has a right to survival as a state of Jewish character, along with a recognition of a right of a Palestinian state, with the work to do of how to build enough mutual trust to get there, knowing that it is going to have to happen in stages … is to be avoided, as it would communicate poorly and make working together for that future goal harder. I know the word likely has different implications to a Palestinian American and if my goal is effective communication rather than provocation I have better words to choose. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/55 "2026-11-06T22:30:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And I honestly do not think that Palestinians ever used the word to mean those things. If you’re wrong, would that matter? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/56 "2026-11-06T22:37:40Z")
No. That’s the point. I reasonably expect that “Zionism” is a word that may have implications to a Palestinian American today other than what I mean by it, so whatever its usage or nonusage by Palestinians historically it will be a bad choice for the goal of finding shared goals and alliance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/57 "2026-11-06T22:39:13Z")
Fair enough. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/58 "2026-11-06T22:40:22Z")
Seems like we really need a new word to mean specifically racist, genocide-advocating Jewish Israelis, because it’s not fair or appropriate to use “Zionist” for that. Kahanist? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2026, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/59 "2026-11-06T23:05:26Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Seems like we really need a new word to mean specifically racist, genocide-advocating Jewish Israelis, because it’s not fair or appropriate to use “Zionist” for that. > Kahanist?. Yeah, I think Kahanist is a good way to get across what you mean if you’re referring to revanchist expansionist Jews. Maybe they’re not all following Kahane’s ideology precisely, but it’s much closer than “Zionist”. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2026, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/60 "2026-11-07T08:20:29Z")
I have no idea to what extent actual politicians and diplomats, but people have, at least hypothetically, talked about a “one-state solution” without mentioning the word Zionism or calling for the ethnic cleansing of anybody. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2026, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557/61 "2026-11-07T08:23:04Z")
Since we’re giving our definitions - when I see “Zionism”, I see “Jewish nationalism expressed through a project of establishing and maintaining a Jewish national homeland _in Palestine_ through _settler colonialism_”. So when someone says they’re a Zionist, that’s what they’re telling me they’re for. And when I say I’m anti-Zionist, that’s what I’m against. Not the Jewish homeland part - knock yourselves out. I hear the Chinese and Dutch are doing great things with building land out of nothing nowadays. Maybe ask them how. The violent settler colonialism part that is a necessary part of Zionism as it is expressed _in practice_ is the part I’m anti. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism-antizionism-antisemitism-etc/1034557.md?page=4)