# Zionism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146 "2010-12-23T03:15:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/1 "2010-12-23T03:15:37Z")
I open this thread with great trepidation. The expression ,a can of worms, comes to mind so please be patient with me. If anyone can discriminate subtle differences between an Israeli citizen and a Jew and Zionist I would welcome it. There are legal, regional and probably theological differences between all three. With all humility How does one self regard oneself as a Zionist? Peter Listening to Sibelius at the moment, lovely Swans ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/2 "2010-12-23T03:42:54Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > If anyone can discriminate subtle differences between an Israeli citizen and a Jew and Zionist I would welcome it. I don’t know what is subtle or complicated about it. **Israeli citizen** - citizen of nation of Israel. Can be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, atheist ( Jewish or non-Jewish ) or most anything else. **Jew** - a person of Jewish descent, usually traced through maternal line or a convert to the the Jewish faith. Jews by descent may or may not be actively religious. Jews may or may not be Zionists, may or may not be citizens of Israel. **Zionist** - a broad category of Jewish nationalist ideology ( with various sub-currents ), these days particularly centered on the existence of a Jewish-run state in what is considered the ancestral Jewish homeland, aka Israel. An Israeli citizen need not be a Zionist and there are non-Jewish Zionists. There are also Jewish anti-Zionists ( particularly some Hasidim come to mind ) and there have even been a few Muslim Zionists. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/3 "2010-12-23T05:20:09Z")
“Zionist” is simply the term modern-day Israelis use to mean “patriot” when referring to themselves or other Israelis, and “very pro-Israel” when referring to foreigners. For instance, I’m an Israeli, I love my country, and that makes me a Zionist. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/4 "2010-12-23T14:27:19Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > …there have even been a few Muslim Zionists. Aren’t there quite a few Christians, especially in the US, who would be considered Zionists? I’m thinking of the Christians who believe that a Jewish state in the ancestral lands of Israel is a prerequisite for the 2nd coming? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/5 "2010-12-23T16:23:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Aren’t there quite a few Christians, especially in the US, who would be considered Zionists? I’m thinking of the Christians who believe that a Jewish state in the ancestral lands of Israel is a prerequisite for the 2nd coming? Yes, there are [Christian Zionists.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism) But sometimes I think their real goal is to get all Jews out of America. Or even to herd all the world’s Jews into one place, Israel/Palestine, where they can be conveniently nuked (by the forces of the Beast, of course). ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/6 "2010-12-23T16:46:16Z")
“Zionism” has many meanings…originally proposed by the founder of Zionism,it was a liberal philosophy. It was proposed as a solution tom the opression of jews in Europe and Russia. Theodore Hertzl beleived that Zionism would restore nationhood to the jews, and that Israel would become a center for tolerance and respect-a “light unto the nations”. It didn’t work out that way. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/7 "2010-12-23T17:00:14Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > It didn’t work out that way. YMMV, I suppose. Like every nation, we’re a work in progress. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/8 "2010-12-23T18:33:11Z")
As is often the case, **Tamerlane** nailed it. I don’t think there is really much room for “debate”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/9 "2010-12-23T18:38:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > YMMV, I suppose. Like every nation, we’re a work in progress. Well, yes. If you’re just like everyone else, you’re not really a light unto the others, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/10 "2010-12-23T18:46:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, yes. If you’re just like everyone else, you’re not really a light unto the others, are you? It is certainly a beacon of “tolerance and respect” in its local _neighbourhood_ - the Arab-Israeli conflict notwithstanding, if you happen to be a member of a religious minority, a homosexual, or a woman, you are better off in Israel than pretty well anywhere else in the ME. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/11 "2010-12-23T18:51:33Z")
No argument regarding the homosexual/women part. And don’t get me wrong; I’d much rather live in Israel than pretty much anywhere but the US or UK. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/12 "2010-12-23T18:57:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No argument regarding the homosexual/women part. And don’t get me wrong; I’d much rather live in Israel than pretty much anywhere but the US or UK. Maybe they just set their initial expectations too high. They shoulda said “we’ll be a light unto some of our immediate neighbours (inbetween fighting 'em like the Kilkenny Cats). The world will take a bit longer.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/13 "2010-12-23T19:08:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is certainly a beacon of “tolerance and respect” in its local _neighbourhood_ - the Arab-Israeli conflict notwithstanding, if you happen to be a member of a religious minority, a homosexual, or a woman, you are better off in Israel than pretty well anywhere else in the ME. 😉 In Israel proper perhaps, in the West Bank no. In the WB you can be in the religious **majority** and still be oppressed by the organized minority. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/14 "2010-12-23T19:13:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In Israel proper perhaps, in the West Bank no. In the WB you can be in the religious **majority** and still be oppressed by the organized minority. The WB isn’t Israel - it is occupied territory. The locals are not “oppressed” on the basis of religion, but because of being ‘occupied’ - a situation the ‘fault’ of which is not obvious, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/15 "2010-12-23T19:19:20Z")
One point to make absolutely clear - just as being a patriotic American to some means “my country right or wrong”, some believe that being a Zionist means unquestioning support of whatever Israel does. Some, OTOH, believe that we can be patriotic Americans who have problems with some of what our leaders do, and that we can be Zionists and be critical of some of Israel’s actions. Both countries do a pretty fine job compared to everyone else, and both still miss hitting the bar they should be aiming for. Being a nightlight is better than cursing the darkness, but it is still short of the beacon that we hope for. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/16 "2010-12-23T19:22:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The WB isn’t Israel - it is occupied territory. I’ve known **FinnAgain** to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/17 "2010-12-23T19:43:49Z")
I have not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/18 "2010-12-23T20:21:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I have not. I keep reminding **FinnAgain** that Israel ends at the Green Line **(not** at the Wall), and he always responds, “You don’t know what Israel’s borders are going to end up being,” as if it were an unsettled question. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/19 "2010-12-23T20:31:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I keep reminding **FinnAgain** that Israel ends at the Green Line **(not** at the Wall), and he always responds, “You don’t know what Israel’s borders are going to end up being,” as if it were an unsettled question. That’s an entirely different issue - that is, what actually constitutes the final border between the WB and Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146/20 "2010-12-23T21:03:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I keep reminding **FinnAgain** that Israel ends at the Green Line **(not** at the Wall), and he always responds, “You don’t know what Israel’s borders are going to end up being,” as if it were an unsettled question. The only way borders are set is when the people on either side of it sit down, draw it on a map and sign at the bottom of the page. Every border in the world, I could find you the specific time and place in which this agreement was made - every single one. Can you point to the name and signing date of the treaty that established the Green Line as an international border? I’m not saying that the Territories are Israel. I’m saying that the border between the two is unresolved. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zionism/565146.md?page=2)