Zogby poll: 50% say they would never vote for Hillary Clinton as POTUS

What you said.

Which is one of the reasons I’m not apprehensive at all about Hillary’s chances of winning the general election. It’s going to be extremely difficult for the right-wing noise machine to come up with something new about Hillary that potential swing voters aren’t going to just tune out because it sounds like the same old same old.

Besides, having been through this for the past 15 years, she’s got a pretty good sense, by now, of how to fight back against this crap. I trust her not to lose this election on manufactured or low-importance BS. I don’t credit Obama or Edwards with that. Edwards, for instance, let the haircut stuff hang around for months before coming up with a definitive reply - which means that, even now, the story itself has more life than the comeback. That would be fatal in a general election campaign.

Couldn’t be her personality or any of the policies she supports :rolleyes:

Policies? She’s the epitome of a centrist, DLC-style Democrat. There’s nothing dislikable about her policies that doesn’t apply to Democrats generally, unless you’re to her left.

And personality? Who gives a flip? It wasn’t Nixon’s personality I had a problem with; it was his abuses of power.

Hell, most of the time these days, the ‘personality’ of a pol is a construct. It’s clear that we were sold a complete bill of goods with respect to Bush’s personality back in 2000, and that he’s really just a whiny, petulant kid. I think we can dispense with the ‘would you like to have a beer with him/her’ test, or any other likability test: even if it were relevant, which it damned sure isn’t, accurately applying it would be next to impossible.

The average republican is going to vote for the repbulican candidate no matter who he is, no matter his opinion of him, just to make sure a Democrat doesn’t win. I don’t think the average Democrat does this, which makes a likable Democrat candidate crucial. I know a few Dems who didn’t vote for Kerry because of his perceived aloofness, etc. and also many Republicans who know Bush is an idiot but voted for him just because.

And while I agree Obama as Clinton’s VP will encourage some non voters to vote, I think it might discourage a lot more.

It’s a sad fact that many vote based on personal likability of the candidate, phisycal attractiveness, etc. If Hilary was hot, there’d be a lot fewer people disliking her.

Statistically, based on CNN exit polls in 2004, 89% of Democrats voted for Kerry and 11% for Bush, while 93% of Republicans voted for Bush and only 7% voted for Kerry. A difference, just not a big difference.

I have to disagree, here.

I’ve not seen that the Democrats, in general, are all supportive of expanding Homeland Security with a Northern Border Division. She has supported that, and nothing I’ve seen in the recent past has shown any backing away from that position.

(Yes, I know it’s a minor point and position - but it is one I feel strongly about. It’s certainly not enough that I’d refuse to vote for her because of it - as I’ve said before, she’ll probably get my vote, even though I do dislike, and mistrust, her.)

BTW, Wee Bairn I think you’re over-estimating the open-mindedness of the average Democrat by a rather large margin. IMNSHO, people who register for either party tend to be a bit rigid about voting in accordance with their party. After all, the cliche is “yellow-dog Democrat.”

The Democrats have huge structural advantage going into this race. As was pointed out, Hillary, Obama, or Edwards don’t have to beat Ronald Reagan, they have to beat Guliani, Romney, or (I suppose) Thompson or McCain.

The Republicans have a huge problem not only by being the party of Bush, their field is incredibly weak. People might hate Hillary, but are they gonna warm up to Guliani? There are those who won’t vote for a woman or a negro, but are those people gonna vote for a Mormon instead?

I infer from this that you are against a Northern Border Division – but why?

Beware of theories that are over-flattering to your personal political position. If your theory about why Democrats lose elections is that Democrats are too nice, too open minded, too kind, too generous, too thoughtful, and too fair, then all I can say is that self-righteousness is a drug.

I’ll admit, first, that there’s an emotional component: I simply like that we shared the longest unpatrolled international border in the world.

For pragmatic considerations, I don’t believe that the border with Canada can be closed, for any amount of resources that we would be willing to assign to the task. It’s too long, and for too much of its length, it lacks any natural boundaries.

At the moment we cannot close the border with Mexico. And there are some impressive physical obstacles there that make running the border a genuine hazard to life and limb. For approximately 2000 miles the US-Canada border lacks even the check that the St. Lawrence provides. I’m not eager to dig up a cite, at the moment, but the numbers I’d heard for the manpower to be recruited for a Northern Division were around the 5-6000 mark. The length of the US-Canada border, ignoring the border with Alaska, is approximately 3500 miles long. That works out to maybe one person for every two miles of border, assuming they never sleep, and there’s no need for administrative personnel. Which might work, if we clear cut two or three miles around the border. But I doubt that’s what the plan would be - rather it would be a localized patrol in NY (Remember this is a plan proposed by a NYS senator - whatever else you might say for or against Hillary she does play the pork barrel game. She’s not egregious about it, IMNSHO, and to a degree it’s a legitimate goal for representatives. And it’s a degree that, with the exception of this Northern Border thing, I’ve had no problem with. I may not agree with all her ideas - I’ve mentioned before how much I dislike casino crack for state governments, but I don’t think she’s gone beyond what I’d consider acceptable for a senator.), Ohio, and Illinois, mostly other, less populous, eastern and mid-western states getting the rest of the bulk of the people.

Which, if the goal is to make the US-Canada border watertight, is completely bass-ackwards from how resources should be allocated - the north western states, where there’s only sparse populations to be disturbed by clandestine crossings are where I’d think we’d need to be placing people.

So we’re talking a several billion a year program that IMNSHO will do nothing to actually improve security in what I see as the high risk areas. Which means to me that it’s a proposed waste of money for no purpose other than to make the sheeple feel safer. And, if I’m going to be extremely cynical, to get a few thousand more voters into GSA positions, and CSCE membership.

Again, all the rhetoric I’ve seen on this issue is about controlling clandestine penetrations from Canada. Not streamlining border crossings at currently established points. The latter would be something I would consider a legitimate plan, even if I might quibble about the scope of the expansion.

Similarly, I’m against the way that the proposed national ID is going. Which has been put on hold again, because of the current concerns about the US-Canada border. I’m a child of the Cold War. I remember hearing how it was a big point of difference between the US and the USSR that US citizens could cross internal borders without having to produce papers for any official who asks. In the wake of 9/11, the government seems to me to be heading towards just that goal, now.

I agree. My reference point is Chicago Democrats, who are about as stubborn at voting for their party (in local and state elections, at any rate) as can be. Personally, I’m a Democrat (actually, I’m not registered, but that’s what I consider myself) and I don’t ever see myself voting Republican, except in the case of a Republican coming from the Libertarian side of things (in other words, socially liberal, economically conservative). Sure, vote the person is fine and all in theory, but how could I possibly vote the person when I don’t support the policies of the party the person is representing?

I saw a quote one time that really made me think about how elections go:

Now whether that is accurate or not, I don’t know. But it seems like the die-hards on either side of the aisle, will rarely change their vote unless there is a damn good reason like their candidate was caught screwing a baby goat in Bin Laden’s cave.

The goal of requiring people to show papers when they cross state/provincial lines? I think that would be clearly unconstitutional in both the U.S. and Canada. (Crossing national borders, even between two countries so similar and friendly as the U.S. and Canada, is a different matter.)

The vote in the Senate was 89-2. That means that pretty much everyone was in favour of that. Not just Democrats, *just about everyone.

  • Or, 98% anyway.

*The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (IRTPA) is an Act of Congress introduced by U.S. Senator Susan M. Collins of Maine. The Senate approved the bill 89-2, and President George W. Bush signed the Act on 17 December 2004, making it law.
*

So, if you single out Sen. Clinton for this, you are simply wrong. :rolleyes: Do you have any evidence that all the other Dem Candidates voted against it?

Granted.

OTOH, at the moment we’ve had threads where people were arrested officially because they didn’t want to show police thier ID[sup]1[/sup]. I’m not sure that I want to be required to carry ID everytime I leave my apartment, and I fear we might be heading there.

Similarly, the US gov’t does hold the right, at the moment, to deny anyone air travel within the US. And has gotten to the point of requiring proper ID for anyone trying to get onto a commercial flight. Which is justified as a security measure in the wake of 9/11. And as a security measure would have stopped not a single one of the 9/11 hijackers, AIUI.

Dr Deth, I see your comment, but the wiki article you linked is pretty sparse. I’m going to read the Act and see just what it entails. If, as I suspect, it’s only the authorizing legislation to change the US-Canada border crossing documentation requirements, I don’t see what it has to do with my objections.

I’ll also say I still think that provision is stupid, and poorly envisioned - given that it’s now 2007, and the border crossing requirement changes have been postponed again. Even if most of the Senate did vote for it. The border crossing requirements change is not something I solely blame on Hillary, just a related topic that came to mind while I was talking about the Northern Border Division. I’m not going to read legalese at 3AM though - I’ll be back in the morning to check it out. I’m not ignoring your comment, just researching further.

[sup]1[/sup] I know there was more to that story than that and that the poster who was arrested had been a major jerk at the same time. I don’t think the police in that case misued their powers, and it is reasonable for them to try to identify persons acting oddly around a crime scene. That doesn’t change that he was brought in for refusing to show ID.

I think we just have a misunderstanding here.

Although it appears, from DrDeth’s cite of the vote count, that just about all Dems favored it anyway, it’s a safe bet that those that didn’t were to Hillary’s left.

Which was my point - if you’re a centrist Dem, a swing voter, or some flavor of Republican, and Hillary has a position on an issue that you have problems with, it’s unlikely that a substantial number of Dems hold a position on that issue that you can at least tolerate.

If you’re to the left of Hillary (the group that I was excepting), you’ll almost surely have some problems with Hillary that you don’t have with a substantial number of Dems. Happens to me all the time. But she isn’t angling for my vote; she knows that in the general election, I’ll have nowhere else to go.